Ram air

gregvk wrote in
:

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


"gregvk" wrote in message
...

I didn't hear it from a film. I heard about it from some old guy
who
saw one land that way. The craft's hydraulics got damaged and
stopped working,
which made it impossible to drop the landing gear or to rotate the
ball turret (it had to be properly positioned in order for the
gunner
to open the little door and climb into the craft) so the gunner was
stuck in there and they had to belly land. I always thought the B-
17
had a manual override crank or something to rotate the ball turret
by
hand... But maybe
they didn't all have those, or it was also damaged (or maybe I'm
mistaken about the existence of a manual override).


Hey Bertie, your forgot to change your name back!!!

:0)




From my headers:

Path: auth.newsreader.octanews.com!newsreader.visi.com!n ews-
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not-
for-mail
Date: 05 Jun 2008 00:00:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Jun 2008 19:00:10 CDT
X-Complaints-To:


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indigo.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!mauve.octanews.net!
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...So not only did he change his name, he also paid for a second
service
provider, teleported himself across several timezones to use it, then
teleported back to use his first provider and post as himself again
from
his original location.
LOL



Well, I'm ****ed now, he and his buds have tracked me down...




Bertie

gregvk wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in news:g27fsf$6ea$4
@blackhelicopter.databasix.com:

gregvk wrote in
:

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


"gregvk" wrote in message
...

I didn't hear it from a film. I heard about it from some old guy
who
saw one land that way. The craft's hydraulics got damaged and
stopped working,
which made it impossible to drop the landing gear or to rotate the
ball turret (it had to be properly positioned in order for the
gunner
to open the little door and climb into the craft) so the gunner
was
stuck in there and they had to belly land. I always thought the
B-
17
had a manual override crank or something to rotate the ball turret
by
hand... But maybe
they didn't all have those, or it was also damaged (or maybe I'm
mistaken about the existence of a manual override).


Hey Bertie, your forgot to change your name back!!!

:0)




From my headers:

Path: auth.newsreader.octanews.com!newsreader.visi.com!n ews-
out.octanews.net!indigo.octanews.net!auth.brown.oc tanews.com.POSTED!
not-
for-mail
Date: 05 Jun 2008 00:00:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Jun 2008 19:00:10 CDT
X-Complaints-To:


From BtB's headers:

Path: auth.newsreader.octanews.com!newsreader.visi.com!
indigo.octanews.net!news-out.octanews.net!mauve.octanews.net!
blackhelicopter.databasix.com!not-for-mail
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:56:08 +0000 (UTC)
X-Complaints-To:
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 00:56:08 +0000 (UTC)


...So not only did he change his name, he also paid for a second
service
provider, teleported himself across several timezones to use it,
then
teleported back to use his first provider and post as himself again
from
his original location.
LOL



Well, I'm ****ed now, he and his buds have tracked me down...




Bertie

Wow, it only took you a minute that time. That's one hell of a
transporter you've got there.

I know. But its easy when you're almost everyone.

...Wait a ****in second. Why am I talking to myself?


Beats me, jeffrey.


Bertie

On Jun 4, 10:56 am, Big John wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:19:41 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"



wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:13 am, Tina wrote:
On Jun 2, 12:01 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

On Jun 1, 4:39 pm, Tina wrote:

The induction port for the ram air on the m20J bypasses the air filter
as well, so we typically observe about a half inch improvement in MP.
That's in line with some of the other numbers offered here.

I guess there's no free lunch. There is no way we want to have an
IO540 pull the airplane along, nor do we want the fuss with turbo
charging. The payback for our typical for real flight mission is just
not there. My thought was and is that if it was something pretty
obvious someone would have done it on a homebuilt. Actually, knowing
some of those guys, it does not have to be obvious at all, they are
really creative designers.

Tina, I think this analysis you posted is good,
" It's only a 360 cubic inch engine turning at 2300 RPM or so. Isn't
that a demand of, let's see, at 23 inches mp at sea level that's
23/30 * 2300/2 * 360 / 12^3 or 180 cubic feet a minute? "

I see Tango 2 Denny has some interesting ideas.
Ken

Well, I think it's a dead issue for us. What is fun to think about is,
let's see, about 200 cubic feet a minute, that's 40 cubic feet of
oxygen a minute, or about 3 pounds. For 50% more O2, 1.5 pounds a
minute, or say 20 pounds to get to a pleasantly high altitude. Maybe
that translates in to dewer weighing a total of 50 pounds with liquid
O2? But it would make 15 inches of MP look like 22 or so as far as the
engine is concerned. I better get back to my day job.

Without crackin' the books and pounding the abacus,
you look like +/- 20% using BoE (Back of Envelope)
calculation, which means you get either 80% or 120%
on your physics exam, you choose.

Resolved: psychologists should not be permitted to minor in the
physical sciences. All in favor?

OR pilots should not be permitted to engage in
psychology in this group, now what's the chances
of that happening...is "nil" close :-).
Ken
PS: What's the rationale of the 12,000' cruise?
You know about the "bends" don't you, if not
just read Berties post!

************************************************** *

Ken

Have you ever talked to anyone who got the bends flying? I have
thousands of hours and never have.

I have gone to 43K+ and made supersonic dives to 10K +/- with no
problems.

I have cruised for hours at 30K cockpit pressure and no problems
during let down and landing.

Big John
John, for what it's worth, bends have to do with gas coming out of
solution in the blood, and would happen if pressure was reduced too
fast. Rapid descent in an airplane would increase pressure, explosive
decompression would decrease it. I don't dive so don't have
decompression tables at hand, but remember coming up from 34 feet in
water means going to two atmospheres pressure to one. Sudden
decompression from a 7000 foot cabin to a 30,000 foot actual attitude
is not as great a change in pressure. It's not comparing apples with
apples exactly, but changes in altitude are a lot less challenging in
terms of getting bends than diving. Divers are cautioned about flying
immediately after diving, it takes time for the dissolved gases to
come out of the blood -- too fast makes bubbles, and bubbles in joints
makes bends.

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 03:28:59 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Big John wrote in
:

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:31:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On Jun 1, 7:59 pm, wrote:
On Jun 1, 8:06 pm, Gezellig wrote:



It happens that formulated :

In the 1970's Ford sold some cars with "Ram-Air Induction"
systems. A scoop mounted on the carb that stuck out above the
hood, to ram vast volumes of air into the carb and get way more
horsepower. That's what they wanted you to believe. At 60 mph
the
pressure recovery would have been laughably tiny, but Ford's
profits were impressive.

Had a Trans Am, scoop was reversed, facing the windshield, had a
flap that opened when MP increased. They claimd that the reversed
position was at the low pressure point at the base of the
windshield hence enhancing the rammed air effect. I don't know,
it
was cool, the scoop assembly was attached to the engine so that
on
acceleration you could see the engine sitting down on its mounts
as
the scopp popped open and lowere ever so slightly.

Locating the scoop at the low-pressure point wouldn't do
much
for ram-air effect, would it? I think the real idea would have been
to make sure the driver heard that thing sucking loudly so it
sounded
like a real powerhouse
I once converted a 14 foot outboard runabout to a 13 foot
inboard Cracker Box with a Chev 283 straight-shaft setup. The
exhausts were water-cooled and exited through the transom. Made so
much noise that I made two mufflers and quieted it right down. The
carb's flame arrestor stuck up far enough that I had a scoop on the
deck, facing away from the cockpit (which was at the back).
Everything else was covered. I dropped my Dad off on a gravel bar
on
a lake once, so he could fish off it while I ran to the far end of
the lake to try the fishing there, three or four miles away. He
told
me he knew when I was coming back; he could hear that Rochester
Quadrajet four-barrel open up and suck vast quantities of air; the
boat got one mile per gallon at full throttle with that huge carb.
But went real fast. I sold it years ago and I bet it don't go real
fast no more, with fuel prices the way they are now.
Dan

I confess to enjoying ancedotal stories.
As a monster nut brat I got some tin cans together
and built a pulse jet, complete with a flapping duct
input, and used a hair dryer for my air input source,
in my parents downstairs fireplace.
So I pour in some gas into the thing, lite it up,
turn on the hair dryer and holy poop, the duct starts
fluttering and flames are fluttering out the ass end!
It worked! It buzzed!

I probably used a pint of gasoline per minute of
operation, but that wasn't the point, it was actually
seeing the damn thing in operation.
Hands on is good stuff.


Please do build another one just like that and put it on youtube,
then..


I've only ever seen one person die right in front of my eyes before.


Bertie
************************************************** *******

Bertie

I've seen two. Both stalled and spun in (

Big John


Neer seen one die in an airplane accident in front of my eyes, but seen
the aftermath, unfortunatley. Seen a girl crushed in a crowd right in
front of me. Yipes. Saw a few die in an ICU a few years ago. That wasnt
so bad, somehow.


Bertie

**************************************
Bertie

Death is not a pleasant occurrence or subject.

First was a 51 that stalled in pattern and made about one full turn
before hitting water off end of R/W in Japan. Never saw the remains. I
was about 100 yards from impact.

Second was a P-80. Took of on a test flight at Willie Air Patch (First
Jet School) and stalled about 1000 feet (for some reason) and made
several turns before impact. Burned. I was one of the first on scene
and covered the torso . Arms and legs had burned off in fire (

This is not a good subject for RAP.

Fly safe and live long.

Big John

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:17:17 -0400, mixed nuts
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:51:47 -0400, dave hillstrom
wrote:


On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Tony
wrote:


Ram air is only as useful the allowing air to get to your carburater
faster but is not necessarily used. When your piston is on its intake
stroke(vaccum) your combustion chamber can only draw in enough air
that is in conjuction to the chambers volume and all other air that is
present after the compression stroke is exported to engines smog
devices and is recirculated only AFTER being filtered. All engines
come off the assembly lines, be it an airplane motor or a vehicle
motor, to draw the amount of air that it needs to run at opptimum
performance. Ram Air is a myth and don't try to throw "turbo" into
the conversation because turbo is recircualted exhaust and still has
unburnt fuel in the fumes.

I think you are quite wrong. Ram air in fact gives us a half inch or
so more manifold pressure, and that increases the total weight of the
air-fuel mixture in the cylinder. Reduce your 'it doesn't matter
argument to an extreme to see how it fails.

As for turbos, the turbine is powered by the exhaust gasses coming

from the engine, the exhaust gas itself is not reintroduced into the

cylinders. The turbine itself could be powered by an electric motor,
for that matter. That was the model for my tongue in cheek comment
about using a shop vac to increase manifold pressure.

will you marry me?

dave the term is not foo and bar.
foo *is* a term from another war and another airforce
but the term you've so successfully stuffed up is fubar
fubar is a vietnam era acronym of F***ed up beyond all recognition.

your sig line is a snafu
(situation normal all F***ed up)

Yore 'rong. foo and bar are metasyntactic variables. They aren't
acronyms (they're metasyntactic variables).

Like being the John and Jane Doe of computer engineering - placeholders.

Fubar predates WWII.

dont agree.
foo for instance is a quite infamous cartoon of a guy peeping over a
fence with the line 'foo was here'

foo is the 'forward observation officer' the guy who used to tootle
over the lines in an auster or a cub spotting for artillery and
fighters. verrah verrah british ol' chap. verrah verrah courageous
flying too boot.

Stealth Pilot

Stealth Pilot wrote in
:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:17:17 -0400, mixed nuts
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:51:47 -0400, dave hillstrom
wrote:


On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Tony
wrote:


Ram air is only as useful the allowing air to get to your
carburater faster but is not necessarily used. When your piston is
on its intake stroke(vaccum) your combustion chamber can only draw
in enough air that is in conjuction to the chambers volume and all
other air that is present after the compression stroke is exported
to engines smog devices and is recirculated only AFTER being
filtered. All engines come off the assembly lines, be it an
airplane motor or a vehicle motor, to draw the amount of air that
it needs to run at opptimum performance. Ram Air is a myth and
don't try to throw "turbo" into the conversation because turbo is
recircualted exhaust and still has unburnt fuel in the fumes.

I think you are quite wrong. Ram air in fact gives us a half inch
or so more manifold pressure, and that increases the total weight
of the air-fuel mixture in the cylinder. Reduce your 'it doesn't
matter argument to an extreme to see how it fails.

As for turbos, the turbine is powered by the exhaust gasses coming

from the engine, the exhaust gas itself is not reintroduced into
the

cylinders. The turbine itself could be powered by an electric
motor, for that matter. That was the model for my tongue in cheek
comment about using a shop vac to increase manifold pressure.

will you marry me?

dave the term is not foo and bar.
foo *is* a term from another war and another airforce
but the term you've so successfully stuffed up is fubar
fubar is a vietnam era acronym of F***ed up beyond all recognition.

your sig line is a snafu
(situation normal all F***ed up)

Yore 'rong. foo and bar are metasyntactic variables. They aren't
acronyms (they're metasyntactic variables).

Like being the John and Jane Doe of computer engineering -
placeholders.

Fubar predates WWII.

dont agree.
foo for instance is a quite infamous cartoon of a guy peeping over a
fence with the line 'foo was here'

foo is the 'forward observation officer' the guy who used to tootle
over the lines in an auster or a cub spotting for artillery and
fighters. verrah verrah british ol' chap. verrah verrah courageous
flying too boot.


Actually, "Foo" came from Smokey Stover, and was a corruption of the
french "feux" ( Smokey was a fireman) He called himself a "Foo fighter"
and juxtaposed with the term UFO (which at the beginning of it's life
just meant anything that pilots couldn't identify and had nothing to do
with little gray men) a UFO became a foo fighter to USAAC pilots in WW2.
While I'm sure the Forward Observation Officer thing is also true,
Smokey Stover was really popular at the time and was the source of a
large number of slang words used during the war.
I always loved his car!

Bertie

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:17:17 -0400, mixed nuts
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:51:47 -0400, dave hillstrom
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Tony
wrote:

Ram air is only as useful the allowing air to get to your carburater
faster but is not necessarily used. When your piston is on its intake
stroke(vaccum) your combustion chamber can only draw in enough air
that is in conjuction to the chambers volume and all other air that is
present after the compression stroke is exported to engines smog
devices and is recirculated only AFTER being filtered. All engines
come off the assembly lines, be it an airplane motor or a vehicle
motor, to draw the amount of air that it needs to run at opptimum
performance. Ram Air is a myth and don't try to throw "turbo" into
the conversation because turbo is recircualted exhaust and still has
unburnt fuel in the fumes.

I think you are quite wrong. Ram air in fact gives us a half inch or
so more manifold pressure, and that increases the total weight of the
air-fuel mixture in the cylinder. Reduce your 'it doesn't matter
argument to an extreme to see how it fails.

As for turbos, the turbine is powered by the exhaust gasses coming

from the engine, the exhaust gas itself is not reintroduced into the
cylinders. The turbine itself could be powered by an electric motor,
for that matter. That was the model for my tongue in cheek comment
about using a shop vac to increase manifold pressure.

will you marry me?

dave the term is not foo and bar.
foo *is* a term from another war and another airforce
but the term you've so successfully stuffed up is fubar
fubar is a vietnam era acronym of F***ed up beyond all recognition.

your sig line is a snafu
(situation normal all F***ed up)

Yore 'rong. foo and bar are metasyntactic variables. They aren't
acronyms (they're metasyntactic variables).

Like being the John and Jane Doe of computer engineering - placeholders.

Fubar predates WWII.

dont agree.
foo for instance is a quite infamous cartoon of a guy peeping over a
fence with the line 'foo was here'

foo is the 'forward observation officer' the guy who used to tootle
over the lines in an auster or a cub spotting for artillery and
fighters. verrah verrah british ol' chap. verrah verrah courageous
flying too boot.

You really have no choice in this matter. foo and bar have a formal
place in computer science and appear regularly in a large number of
RFCs as well as in the scientific literature. If you, or anywon else
choose to us these terms in any other context, feel free to do so but,
unless yore a computer geek describing algorithms in pseudo-code and
contributing new and more wonderful metasyntactic variables to the
pool (see reesent psot sigs by won Daev Hillstorm) don't go peeing on
our carpet.

--
nuts

Stealth Pilot wrote in
:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:17:17 -0400, mixed nuts
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:51:47 -0400, dave hillstrom
wrote:


On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Tony
wrote:


Ram air is only as useful the allowing air to get to your
carburater faster but is not necessarily used. When your piston is
on its intake stroke(vaccum) your combustion chamber can only draw
in enough air that is in conjuction to the chambers volume and all
other air that is present after the compression stroke is exported
to engines smog devices and is recirculated only AFTER being
filtered. All engines come off the assembly lines, be it an
airplane motor or a vehicle motor, to draw the amount of air that
it needs to run at opptimum performance. Ram Air is a myth and
don't try to throw "turbo" into the conversation because turbo is
recircualted exhaust and still has unburnt fuel in the fumes.

I think you are quite wrong. Ram air in fact gives us a half inch
or so more manifold pressure, and that increases the total weight
of the air-fuel mixture in the cylinder. Reduce your 'it doesn't
matter argument to an extreme to see how it fails.

As for turbos, the turbine is powered by the exhaust gasses coming

from the engine, the exhaust gas itself is not reintroduced into
the

cylinders. The turbine itself could be powered by an electric
motor, for that matter. That was the model for my tongue in cheek
comment about using a shop vac to increase manifold pressure.

will you marry me?

dave the term is not foo and bar.
foo *is* a term from another war and another airforce
but the term you've so successfully stuffed up is fubar
fubar is a vietnam era acronym of F***ed up beyond all recognition.

your sig line is a snafu
(situation normal all F***ed up)

Yore 'rong. foo and bar are metasyntactic variables. They aren't
acronyms (they're metasyntactic variables).

Like being the John and Jane Doe of computer engineering -
placeholders.

Fubar predates WWII.

dont agree.
foo for instance is a quite infamous cartoon of a guy peeping over a
fence with the line 'foo was here'

BY the way, the Foo was here thing was a corruption of th eorignal
Kilroy was here. no idea where that started, but it was everywhere for
years. Foo was here was a minor variation.


Bertie

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:38:44 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote in
:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:17:17 -0400, mixed nuts
wrote:

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:51:47 -0400, dave hillstrom
wrote:


On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Tony
wrote:


Ram air is only as useful the allowing air to get to your
carburater faster but is not necessarily used. When your piston is
on its intake stroke(vaccum) your combustion chamber can only draw
in enough air that is in conjuction to the chambers volume and all
other air that is present after the compression stroke is exported
to engines smog devices and is recirculated only AFTER being
filtered. All engines come off the assembly lines, be it an
airplane motor or a vehicle motor, to draw the amount of air that
it needs to run at opptimum performance. Ram Air is a myth and
don't try to throw "turbo" into the conversation because turbo is
recircualted exhaust and still has unburnt fuel in the fumes.

I think you are quite wrong. Ram air in fact gives us a half inch
or so more manifold pressure, and that increases the total weight
of the air-fuel mixture in the cylinder. Reduce your 'it doesn't
matter argument to an extreme to see how it fails.

As for turbos, the turbine is powered by the exhaust gasses coming

from the engine, the exhaust gas itself is not reintroduced into
the

cylinders. The turbine itself could be powered by an electric
motor, for that matter. That was the model for my tongue in cheek
comment about using a shop vac to increase manifold pressure.

will you marry me?

dave the term is not foo and bar.
foo *is* a term from another war and another airforce
but the term you've so successfully stuffed up is fubar
fubar is a vietnam era acronym of F***ed up beyond all recognition.

your sig line is a snafu
(situation normal all F***ed up)

Yore 'rong. foo and bar are metasyntactic variables. They aren't
acronyms (they're metasyntactic variables).

Like being the John and Jane Doe of computer engineering -
placeholders.

Fubar predates WWII.

dont agree.
foo for instance is a quite infamous cartoon of a guy peeping over a
fence with the line 'foo was here'

BY the way, the Foo was here thing was a corruption of th eorignal
Kilroy was here. no idea where that started, but it was everywhere for
years. Foo was here was a minor variation.


Bertie

they are fascinating pieces of folk history so when I find one out it
sticks in the memory.

Kilroy was a government guy pressed into the task of inspecting the
quality of the hastily built cargo ships the americans turned out for
the shipping task to england. he had no way of remembering where he
had previously inspected so he developed the habit of chalking 'Kilroy
was here" to remind himself of sections he had already inspected. the
internal sections were eventually welded into the structure.

weeks later when torpedo damage was being repaired the workers would
cut away sealed parts and find the mysterious chalk marks "Kilroy was
here". the endearing puzzle being how did they get there in sealed
sections?

the mystery was explained a few years ago in a news radio segment
where someone actually tracked down the guy and got him to explain the
riddle.

Stealth ( liberty ships?) Pilot

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:21:50 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:


fence with the line 'foo was here'

foo is the 'forward observation officer' the guy who used to tootle
over the lines in an auster or a cub spotting for artillery and
fighters. verrah verrah british ol' chap. verrah verrah courageous
flying too boot.


Actually, "Foo" came from Smokey Stover, and was a corruption of the
french "feux" ( Smokey was a fireman) He called himself a "Foo fighter"
and juxtaposed with the term UFO (which at the beginning of it's life
just meant anything that pilots couldn't identify and had nothing to do
with little gray men) a UFO became a foo fighter to USAAC pilots in WW2.
While I'm sure the Forward Observation Officer thing is also true,
Smokey Stover was really popular at the time and was the source of a
large number of slang words used during the war.
I always loved his car!

Bertie

interesting. smokey never seemed to make it into our war history.
dont doubt you though.

Stealth Pilot