The ethanol nightmare has arrived!

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:55:09 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Diesel-electric locomotives are the norm in the US. Some of those electric
engines are decades old, and going strong. Not the same, I know...but
perhaps indicative of what electric technology *can* do.

Here in the Northeast, we even have diesel-electric-electric! G

The locomotives that run in and out of the NYC tunnels have electrical
systems that match the overhead and third rail. When no wires are
available, the diesel generates the electricity. When a wire is
available, the diesel is shut down, and the locomotive runs as an
electric.

Some of the early versions, built in the '50's, are still running
after refurbishment in the early 80's.

The old:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FL9
The replacements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Genesis

The dual mode idea keeps the smoke out of the tunnels and eliminates
the need to swap locomotives at the end of the electrified portion of
the rail line.

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:45:03 GMT, wrote:

Amtrak isn't a freight hauler.

DC to BOS is about 350 miles.

LA to Chicago is about 1500 miles.

Electric locomotives also haul freight, going back to maybe the 1920's
in the Northeast.

On the other hand, on a 1500 mile haul through nowhere, a diesel
locomotive is still an efficient and relatively clean solution,
compared to a comparable number of tractor-trailers.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:1is5d5-uv9.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

What, a 2,000 mile long electric system is down the road?

Where is there an electric train system 2000 miles long?

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

Not with an attitude like that there isn't!

Attitude has nothing to do with it, it is economics.

Who is going to pay to string up and maintain the overhead wires for
the 140,490 miles of freight railway in the US?


Same people that pays for everything, you.

And what would be the motivation to do this unless there was some
astounding breakthrough and electricity became esentially free?


--
Jim Pennino

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Peter Clark wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:45:03 GMT, wrote:

Peter Clark wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:55:04 GMT, wrote:


LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Isn't the Amtrak Northeast corridor (DC to BOS) electrified?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...nj-transit.jpg

Amtrak isn't a freight hauler.

DC to BOS is about 350 miles.

LA to Chicago is about 1500 miles.

I wouldn't call 350 miles "local". I call local the Boston T or the
NY subway. The Cambridge overhead electrified bus lines. I think I
read something about electric busses starting to replace the old stock
in NY, BOS, and CHI. As for rail, the ability to add to the existing
intermediate haul segments of the system exists, and has for decades.
Still have to fuel the generators that power the overhead gantries, so
does it take less fuel to put it in each engine, or to run generators
to power overhead electrified lines in the absense of large scale
nuclear power generators to feed such a system?

Even absent nuclear, little electricity in North America comes from
oil.

And there is there are about 150,000 miles of freight track in the US.


--
Jim Pennino

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Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:s0h5d5-l06.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:e635d5-sen.ln1
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Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message
...
Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message
...

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn is
about
the worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

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Bio diesel from seaweed...read an article an area the size
of
Belgium would be sufficient to fuel all aircraft needs....

Well, that's discouraging since aircraft needs are a drop in
the
bucket.


--
Jim Pennino

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Maybe, but we can run just about everything else on
electricity...

You mean like trucks, trains, busses and farm and construction
equipment?


Electric trucks trains and busses have been around for ages. Farm
equipment? Why not?

LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to Chicago.


Maybe not, but you can have long distance electric trains, no
problem.

Other than the almost 150,000 miles of wires you would have to string,
no problem.

You sure aren't going to run them on batteries.


Who said anyone was?

Not much of an argument. Lionel can do it, surely amtrak can.

Just because something can be done is not a reason it should be
done.

And once again, Amtrak doesn't haul freight.

--
Jim Pennino

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wrote

Diesel-electric locomotives run on diesel fuel, not electricity.

A big conventional diesel engine drives a conventional generator which
in turn powers electric motors.

Why don't they just drive the thing directly from the diesel engine?

The electric drive eliminates the need for a huge transmission.

Plus another very important factor.

The electric motors turn into big generators, when the train starts pushing
the locomotive, like when coming down a fairly steep grade.

Rather than overheat or wear out the car brakes, the wheel motors generate
massive amounts of electricity that the engineer directs into a huge banks
of resistors, which act like giant electric heaters, heating the outside
air. Only when all of the resistors are running at full power, does the
engineer begin selecting the car brakes.
--
Jim in NC

wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:7417d5-p8l.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:1is5d5-uv9.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be
any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to
Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul
there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for
local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

What, a 2,000 mile long electric system is down the road?

Where is there an electric train system 2000 miles long?

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

Not with an attitude like that there isn't!

Attitude has nothing to do with it, it is economics.

Who is going to pay to string up and maintain the overhead wires
for
the 140,490 miles of freight railway in the US?


Same people that pays for everything, you.

And what would be the motivation to do this unless there was some
astounding breakthrough and electricity became esentially free?



Well, when it's cheaper than diesel.... That's what we're talking about,
I believe.

Berti

wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in newsj17d5-p8l.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:s0h5d5-l06.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:e635d5-sen.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message
...
Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message
...

Avacados give a higher yield/acre then corn.

Unless the intent was to subsidize corn farmers, corn
is
about
the worst thing one could pick.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.


Bio diesel from seaweed...read an article an area the
size
of
Belgium would be sufficient to fuel all aircraft
needs....

Well, that's discouraging since aircraft needs are a drop
in
the
bucket.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Maybe, but we can run just about everything else on
electricity...

You mean like trucks, trains, busses and farm and
construction
equipment?


Electric trucks trains and busses have been around for ages.
Farm
equipment? Why not?

LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to Chicago.


Maybe not, but you can have long distance electric trains, no
problem.

Other than the almost 150,000 miles of wires you would have to
string,
no problem.

You sure aren't going to run them on batteries.


Who said anyone was?

Not much of an argument. Lionel can do it, surely amtrak can.

Just because something can be done is not a reason it should be
done.

And once again, Amtrak doesn't haul freight.


OK, so SF or whatever. In any case, just reintroducing rail in place of
the current over-reliance on trucking would be a huge help. Even diesel
trains are many rimes more efficient than trucks.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:7417d5-p8l.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:1is5d5-uv9.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be
any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to
Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul
there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for
local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

What, a 2,000 mile long electric system is down the road?

Where is there an electric train system 2000 miles long?

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

Not with an attitude like that there isn't!

Attitude has nothing to do with it, it is economics.

Who is going to pay to string up and maintain the overhead wires
for
the 140,490 miles of freight railway in the US?


Same people that pays for everything, you.

And what would be the motivation to do this unless there was some
astounding breakthrough and electricity became esentially free?



Well, when it's cheaper than diesel.... That's what we're talking about,
I believe.

OK, so there is this astounding breakthrough and electricity becomes
essentially free and you electrify the roughly 150,000 miles of
freight railway.

That takes care of about 38% of the freight in terms of ton-miles.

Then all you have to do is electrify a couple of orders of magnitude
more highways and build electric trucks.

Then all you have to do is electrify all the roads between the rail
depots, distribution centers, and all the shops, stores, and supermarkets.

If the astounding breakthrough occured, it would be far simpler and cheaper
to just synthesize diesel fuel with the electricity, which isn't done
now because the cost of the energy to do it is too high.


--
Jim Pennino

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"Peter Dohm" wrote

A lot of stationary farm equipment is electric. As to a lot of the rest,
you'll know better if you think about it.

What, like the fact that much farm equipment runs at high output levels,
for hours on end, going up to 16+ hours per day during harvest time?

Nahhh, that couldn't be it. ;-))
--
Jim in NC