funny

On 05 Oct 2003 04:02 AM, Barnyard BOb -- posted the following:

"RSwanson" wrote:

Final line of the report:
"The pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed which resulted in
an inadvertent stall. Contributing to the accident was the pilot's
lack of experience in this type of airplane." And THAT has something
to do with his engine choice?????????
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You don't comprehend the TOTAL scenario for beans, do you?
This is a tragic comedy of errors.. not jerror.

You can't cherry pick a last line and expect to learn squat
or argue in an intelligent manner.

To begin with... the prop/engine combo could not pull the plane
though the air with sufficient airspeed above a stall. The
pilot-builder committed a number of errors before, during and
after take off that doomed him.

If the nuances and details of the report escape you , sorry.
The loss is yours.

The report says that his prop was adjusted incorrectly. Is it your
position that it is impossible to have an incorrectly adjusted prop on a
Lycoming, or that somebody smart enough to install a lycoming would not
have adjusted it incorrectly?

Either way I don't see how the choice of engine had anything to do with
it, only the installation. Even the auto-conversion advocates will tell
you that everything depends on the quality of the installation.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:06:58 +0000, RobertR237 wrote:

In article , Barnyard BOb --
writes:


I don't know.
What?

I do know.... the last Soob powered local plane crashed, burned and the
pilot became another fatality statistic off the end of runway. Maiden
flight Propulsion issues.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19459&key=1


So how then do you explain a recent RV-6 with a certified engine that
also crashed on its maiden flight with propulsion issues? Was it a bad
engine choice or a bad installation?

YMMV, but you appear to share and reflect the pilot-builder's deadly
attitude. The devil lurks in the 10,000 details.


That is the real issue, was the engine a bad choice or was the
installation not done correctly?


There is a lot more service history and corporate knowledge on Lycoming
and Continental installations than there is for automotive conversions. So
a Lycoming or Continental installer has a lot more info to work with, and
he is much less likely to come up with a bad installation.

I think there is some hope that well engineered, firewall-forward
automotive conversion packages may eventually become as reliable as
Lycomings or Continentals. But getting the same reliablity from home-brew
conversions will be a lot more difficult. We need more guys like Bruce
Frank collecting and diseminating information, and all builders need to
share info on what works and what doesn't work.

--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
e-mail: khorton02(_at_)rogers(_dot_)com

Dear, dear, dear Bob the accident had noting to do with the
kind of engine. So , it is obviously much cheeper to kill your-
self behind a non Lycosaurus, isnt it?

Obviously, this is too complex for you to see in depth.

Like I was telling the other clown of limited capacity
and/or experience. There is much more to this than
meets the uneducated, untrained and biased eye.

Owe who only very seldom agrees with You.

And vice-versa.


Barnyard BOb -- 50 years of flight

Kevin Horton wrote:

"The pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed which resulted in an
inadvertent stall. Contributing to the accident was the pilot's lack of
experience in this type of airplane." And THAT has something to do with
his engine choice?????????
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You don't comprehend the TOTAL scenario for beans, do you? This is a
tragic comedy of errors.. not jerror.

You can't cherry pick a last line and expect to learn squat or argue in
an intelligent manner.

To begin with... the prop/engine combo could not pull the plane though
the air with sufficient airspeed above a stall. The pilot-builder
committed a number of errors before, during and after take off that
doomed him.

If the nuances and details of the report escape you , sorry. The loss is
yours.


Barnyard BOb -- 50 years of flight.

I have to agree with BOb on this one.

You could conclude that the thrust problem was due to the prop pitch being
set too fine, which it apparently was. The engine didn't fail. Now, why
was the prop pitch set so fine? Two possibilities: the engine wasn't
putting out enough power, or the builder simply screwed up with this
"non-standard" prop. Why was he using such a "non-standard" prop? He had
that prop because of the "non-standard" engine installation.

If you stick with a "standard" aviation engine and prop, there is no
guarantee they will be problem free, but at least the usual problem areas
are well known and you should be able to watch out for them. If you go
with a "non-standard" engine and/or prop you don't know what problems to
look out for, so you can get bit, as happened in this case.

From what I can tell the core engines seem to do OK in the automotive
conversions, but it is the other stuff that causes problems - PSRUs,
ignition systems, fuel systems, cooling systems, props, etc. But if you
have a power loss it doesn't matter whether it was the core engine or some
other part that let you down. You are in the trees either way.

A local Murphy Rebel flyer had a Subura conversion, but he eventually
pulled it out and went with a Lycoming. He had scared himself a few too
many times with various failues of his home-brew conversion.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Right on and well stated, Kevin.


Barnyard BOb --

Either way I don't see how the choice of engine had anything to do with
it, only the installation. Even the auto-conversion advocates will tell
you that everything depends on the quality of the installation.

Del Rawlins-
++++++++++++++++++++++
You have tunnel vision, Del.
I cannot help you. g


Barnyard BOb --

Try Greg Young's RV-6 N6GY first flight.
"Jerry Springer" wrote in message
ink.net...
Robert, can't fine that one could you point me to a NTSB report?
Because I fly an RV-6 I try to learn from the other guys mistakes.
Thanks,

Jerry

RobertR237 wrote:
In article , Barnyard BOb --
writes:


I don't know.
What?

I do know.... the last Soob powered local plane crashed,
burned and the pilot became another fatality statistic off the
end of runway. Maiden flight Propulsion issues.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19459&key=1



So how then do you explain a recent RV-6 with a certified engine that
also
crashed on its maiden flight with propulsion issues? Was it a bad
engine
choice or a bad installation?


YMMV, but you appear to share and reflect the pilot-builder's deadly
attitude. The devil lurks in the 10,000 details.



That is the real issue, was the engine a bad choice or was the
installation not
done correctly?


Barnyard BOb -- Ignorance is bliss



I won't go there! :-)


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Bob,

You seem to be a grumpy old man "armchair builder". Any pics of planes you have
personally built? Or just stories?

I'm still building as we speak. Check out my links.

And the devil is in the details whether it be a Cont, Lyc or a Soob.

I do find it interesting the Honda has designed and is testing a
4 cyl water-cooled aircraft engine for Lycoming to produce. Would that be
classed an auto engine by you as well?

Semi-literate? Did someone not give you your happy medication today?


Some do, others just bitch.

-
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:
What's so funny about a Soob in a plane?


I don't know.
What?

I do know.... the last Soob powered local plane crashed,
burned and the pilot became another fatality statistic off the
end of runway. Maiden flight Propulsion issues.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19459&key=1

YMMV, but you appear to share and reflect the pilot-builder's deadly
attitude. The devil lurks in the 10,000 details.


(Don't worry I don't get uptight about people questioning my motor choice.)
That's precisely what I'm working on.


Any other personal problems that you would care to reveal?


For the anti car conversion crowd, I'm not worried about the engine. I've done
the motorcycle, drag truck, dirt track etc and not a single engine has crapped
out on me, yet.


YET.


I believe if you take the time and do things right the first time it don't
matter where the engine originally came from.

--
Bart D. Hull


WoW....

Nothing quite like well intentioned advice and philosophy
uttered from a semi-literate, neophyte Soob dood's keyboard.

Are you listening, Lycoming and Continental?


Barnyard BOb -- Ignorance is bliss

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Barnyard BOb -- wrote in message . ..



You have tunnel vision, Del.


And you have your head up your ass as usual.

M

In article . net, Jerry
Springer writes:


Robert, can't fine that one could you point me to a NTSB report?
Because I fly an RV-6 I try to learn from the other guys mistakes.
Thanks,

Jerry



I don't know about the NTSB report but it occured at David Wayne Hooks airport
about a year or so ago. The guy didn't stay in the pattern and the engine
failed as he was returning to the airport. Crashed into a trailer (and tree)
not too far from the airport. I don't know all the details but his engine just
stopped with what I later heard were fuel supply problems.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Oh boy I want to get the popcorn out and sit back and watch this one. :-)

Jerry

Bart D. Hull wrote:
Bob,

You seem to be a grumpy old man "armchair builder". Any pics of planes
you have personally built? Or just stories?

I'm still building as we speak. Check out my links.

And the devil is in the details whether it be a Cont, Lyc or a Soob.

I do find it interesting the Honda has designed and is testing a
4 cyl water-cooled aircraft engine for Lycoming to produce. Would that be
classed an auto engine by you as well?

Semi-literate? Did someone not give you your happy medication today?


Some do, others just bitch.

-
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:

What's so funny about a Soob in a plane?



I don't know.
What?

I do know.... the last Soob powered local plane crashed,
burned and the pilot became another fatality statistic off the
end of runway. Maiden flight Propulsion issues.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X19459&key=1

YMMV, but you appear to share and reflect the pilot-builder's deadly
attitude. The devil lurks in the 10,000 details.


(Don't worry I don't get uptight about people questioning my motor
choice.)
That's precisely what I'm working on.



Any other personal problems that you would care to reveal?


For the anti car conversion crowd, I'm not worried about the engine.
I've done
the motorcycle, drag truck, dirt track etc and not a single engine
has crapped
out on me, yet.



YET.


I believe if you take the time and do things right the first time it
don't matter where the engine originally came from.

--
Bart D. Hull



WoW....

Nothing quite like well intentioned advice and philosophy
uttered from a semi-literate, neophyte Soob dood's keyboard.

Are you listening, Lycoming and Continental?


Barnyard BOb -- Ignorance is bliss