If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Curiosity of the first order
I'm quite curious about this groups response to an announcement of a new
magazine about experimental helicopters. There has been essentially no response. I'm sure surprised. Is there a basis for this group that I'm unaware of that would create a total lack of curiosity or comment? I'm at a loss to understand this. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Stu,
This group is not as active as what it used to be. There are also people in this group that think we have a death wish flying experimental rotorcraft. They do not think that a good helicopter can be developed without spending billions of dollars. I just got the idea but might be completely wrong. Hennie "Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... I'm quite curious about this groups response to an announcement of a new magazine about experimental helicopters. There has been essentially no response. I'm sure surprised. Is there a basis for this group that I'm unaware of that would create a total lack of curiosity or comment? I'm at a loss to understand this. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
The bad news.
Most modes of transportation have changed relatively little during the past 70 years. For example, the automobile had, and it still has; four wheels, an enclosed heated passenger compartment, a reciprocating engine and a steering wheel. In addition, the speed limit has not changed, whereas the speed limit of the computer doubles every two years. In part, this slow development is because the transportation industry is a mature one. This is inability to improve is particularly apparent in the field of rotorcraft. Boeing has stated " The Chinook was developed in the late 1950s, less than a decade after the B-52 bomber entered service. Since then, two follow-on bombers have been fielded, but no new heavy-lift helicopter." This lack of significant advancement in rotorcraft has resulted in a diminishing number of people being involved in rotorcraft R & D. In addition, this small collection of people is thinned out even further by their diversity of interests. Jokingly, at one extreme are the few whose 'research consist of discovering whether a NC nut or a NF nut is used on a NF bolt. At the other extreme are the few whose research consists of modeling the blade vortex in 5D. This reduced activity at the various levels of rotorcraft development manifests itself in many ways. One of these is in the peripheral support industries, such as publications. How many times can the same ideas be regurgitated? The good news; I am convinced that the field of rotorcraft has fallen behind that of other modes of transportation. There is an opportunity to catch-up, but, it will only come about when its leaders step out of the box. This box is the mindset that has embraced the abominable tail-rotor and excluded the more efficient latterly-located-twin-main-rotors. Frustrated defense departments and some industry leaders are now starting to look in this direction. They are also looking at very-light rotorcraft, to be used as UAVs, There is absolute no reason why the recreational/experimental side of rotorcraft cannot experience a developing and exciting future by moving in the same direction. This posting may appear to be self-serving, but there is no commercial interest on my part. Dave J. http://www.UniCopter.com "Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... I'm quite curious about this groups response to an announcement of a new magazine about experimental helicopters. There has been essentially no response. I'm sure surprised. Is there a basis for this group that I'm unaware of that would create a total lack of curiosity or comment? I'm at a loss to understand this. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Dave: Thanks for your response. I've begun to think that I'm talking about
enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. Your Joke about the research of discovery of the NC nut vs. the NF bolt hit my funny bone. I will use that somewhere in the magazine in the future. To your hate/dislike for the tail rotor. I don't know whether you have a helicopter or not or if you maintain one, but I'm convinced that I can't afford a twin rotor ship. The blades for my Safari are over $5,000/ set. The transmission, and it is much simpler than what will be required for a twin rotor ship is around $15,000. The Rotor heads, the control linkage??? Having just finished balancing the tail rotor and main rotor blades on my Safari, my imagination runs away with me when I start thinking about trying to balance two main rotors at the same time with the mutual interference possible. How do the big boys with lots of $$$ do it?? There is a two seat tandem rotor helo being developed for the kit market in Canada. Their price guess is over $100K. There will be few that can afford this toy. All these high prices for a helicopter that basically is a recreation device that can't earn it's keep. We are constantly barraged by people looking for a more affordable, otherwise they can't join in, ship. I think that the research we need is both into ways to drive the costs of the present configurations down, and exploring some of the advantages displayed in things like the Cheyenne. My "Research" is into the cause and elimination of the 2/rev vibrations in a two bladed helicopter. With my limited funds, my progress is very slow. I am, however, mentally engaged in the project and being an engineer, this keeps me out of mischief. Stuart Fields Editor/Publisher of the Experimental Helicopter magazine. "Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:Rdk4d.476660$M95.387564@pd7tw1no... The bad news. Most modes of transportation have changed relatively little during the past 70 years. For example, the automobile had, and it still has; four wheels, an enclosed heated passenger compartment, a reciprocating engine and a steering wheel. In addition, the speed limit has not changed, whereas the speed limit of the computer doubles every two years. In part, this slow development is because the transportation industry is a mature one. This is inability to improve is particularly apparent in the field of rotorcraft. Boeing has stated " The Chinook was developed in the late 1950s, less than a decade after the B-52 bomber entered service. Since then, two follow-on bombers have been fielded, but no new heavy-lift helicopter." This lack of significant advancement in rotorcraft has resulted in a diminishing number of people being involved in rotorcraft R & D. In addition, this small collection of people is thinned out even further by their diversity of interests. Jokingly, at one extreme are the few whose 'research consist of discovering whether a NC nut or a NF nut is used on a NF bolt. At the other extreme are the few whose research consists of modeling the blade vortex in 5D. This reduced activity at the various levels of rotorcraft development manifests itself in many ways. One of these is in the peripheral support industries, such as publications. How many times can the same ideas be regurgitated? The good news; I am convinced that the field of rotorcraft has fallen behind that of other modes of transportation. There is an opportunity to catch-up, but, it will only come about when its leaders step out of the box. This box is the mindset that has embraced the abominable tail-rotor and excluded the more efficient latterly-located-twin-main-rotors. Frustrated defense departments and some industry leaders are now starting to look in this direction. They are also looking at very-light rotorcraft, to be used as UAVs, There is absolute no reason why the recreational/experimental side of rotorcraft cannot experience a developing and exciting future by moving in the same direction. This posting may appear to be self-serving, but there is no commercial interest on my part. Dave J. http://www.UniCopter.com "Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... I'm quite curious about this groups response to an announcement of a new magazine about experimental helicopters. There has been essentially no response. I'm sure surprised. Is there a basis for this group that I'm unaware of that would create a total lack of curiosity or comment? I'm at a loss to understand this. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Stu,
Your concerns about price are understood, but for a counter argument;- My background is in manufacturing, and more specifically, the manufacturing of equipment that is used to mechanize and automate the production and assembly lines of other companies. Without qualification, it can be said that the single largest contributor to lower prices, by far, is 'economies of scale' Roughly speaking, the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter has twice as many different types of parts as the twin-main-rotor helicopter. The twin-main-rotor helicopter will have double the production run due to the commonality of parts. Logic suggests that the twin-main-rotor helicopter will cost less than the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter. In addition, latterly-located-twin-main-rotors have a number of aerodynamic advantages. I really believe that this configuration is the future of rotorcraft, and this future may arrive next month. The only current request for a new helicopter in the USA is the DARPA competition for an Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft. An intermeshing helicopter and a compound helicopter are the two finalists that are competing for the authorization to build a prototype. I've begun to think that I'm talking about enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. There is no reason why the affeceadoes of recreational helicopters can't start looking at the 'second coming of rotorcraft'. A little preaching in your new magazine might lead the unconverted out of the wilderness. Dave J. "Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... Dave: Thanks for your response. I've begun to think that I'm talking about enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. Your Joke about the research of discovery of the NC nut vs. the NF bolt hit my funny bone. I will use that somewhere in the magazine in the future. To your hate/dislike for the tail rotor. I don't know whether you have a helicopter or not or if you maintain one, but I'm convinced that I can't afford a twin rotor ship. The blades for my Safari are over $5,000/ set. The transmission, and it is much simpler than what will be required for a twin rotor ship is around $15,000. The Rotor heads, the control linkage??? Having just finished balancing the tail rotor and main rotor blades on my Safari, my imagination runs away with me when I start thinking about trying to balance two main rotors at the same time with the mutual interference possible. How do the big boys with lots of $$$ do it?? There is a two seat tandem rotor helo being developed for the kit market in Canada. Their price guess is over $100K. There will be few that can afford this toy. All these high prices for a helicopter that basically is a recreation device that can't earn it's keep. We are constantly barraged by people looking for a more affordable, otherwise they can't join in, ship. I think that the research we need is both into ways to drive the costs of the present configurations down, and exploring some of the advantages displayed in things like the Cheyenne. My "Research" is into the cause and elimination of the 2/rev vibrations in a two bladed helicopter. With my limited funds, my progress is very slow. I am, however, mentally engaged in the project and being an engineer, this keeps me out of mischief. Stuart Fields Editor/Publisher of the Experimental Helicopter magazine. "Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:Rdk4d.476660$M95.387564@pd7tw1no... The bad news. Most modes of transportation have changed relatively little during the past 70 years. For example, the automobile had, and it still has; four wheels, an enclosed heated passenger compartment, a reciprocating engine and a steering wheel. In addition, the speed limit has not changed, whereas the speed limit of the computer doubles every two years. In part, this slow development is because the transportation industry is a mature one. This is inability to improve is particularly apparent in the field of rotorcraft. Boeing has stated " The Chinook was developed in the late 1950s, less than a decade after the B-52 bomber entered service. Since then, two follow-on bombers have been fielded, but no new heavy-lift helicopter." This lack of significant advancement in rotorcraft has resulted in a diminishing number of people being involved in rotorcraft R & D. In addition, this small collection of people is thinned out even further by their diversity of interests. Jokingly, at one extreme are the few whose 'research consist of discovering whether a NC nut or a NF nut is used on a NF bolt. At the other extreme are the few whose research consists of modeling the blade vortex in 5D. This reduced activity at the various levels of rotorcraft development manifests itself in many ways. One of these is in the peripheral support industries, such as publications. How many times can the same ideas be regurgitated? The good news; I am convinced that the field of rotorcraft has fallen behind that of other modes of transportation. There is an opportunity to catch-up, but, it will only come about when its leaders step out of the box. This box is the mindset that has embraced the abominable tail-rotor and excluded the more efficient latterly-located-twin-main-rotors. Frustrated defense departments and some industry leaders are now starting to look in this direction. They are also looking at very-light rotorcraft, to be used as UAVs, There is absolute no reason why the recreational/experimental side of rotorcraft cannot experience a developing and exciting future by moving in the same direction. This posting may appear to be self-serving, but there is no commercial interest on my part. Dave J. http://www.UniCopter.com "Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... I'm quite curious about this groups response to an announcement of a new magazine about experimental helicopters. There has been essentially no response. I'm sure surprised. Is there a basis for this group that I'm unaware of that would create a total lack of curiosity or comment? I'm at a loss to understand this. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:jHK4d.83778$%S.11725@pd7tw2no... Hi Stu, Your concerns about price are understood, but for a counter argument;- My background is in manufacturing, and more specifically, the manufacturing of equipment that is used to mechanize and automate the production and assembly lines of other companies. Without qualification, it can be said that the single largest contributor to lower prices, by far, is 'economies of scale' Boy do I understand that..I manufacture a rotor speed alarm system. It is basically for the Safari, but easily modifiable to others. With the small market the individual prices have to be high to cover my costs. I also built some cyclic simulators that I thought should sell for $50. My cost was closer to $200. If I could build 1,000... Yeah you were preaching to the choir here. Roughly speaking, the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter has twice as many different types of parts as the twin-main-rotor helicopter. The twin-main-rotor helicopter will have double the production run due to the commonality of parts. Logic suggests that the twin-main-rotor helicopter will cost less than the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter. Logic does not suggest that the twin main will cost less than the main-tail ship unless you can produce in large quantities. Logic obviously says that the main-tail is less costly for single items. Your argument may hold water for some yet to be determined production numbers. Just remember the market for kit helicopters is not large. If you go into the certified ships, you will learn, as Frank Robinson has learned, there are some overhead costs that can jack your costs up that aren't covered in a simple economies of scale model.. In addition, latterly-located-twin-main-rotors have a number of aerodynamic advantages. I agree here just based on what I see the Kamans doing. I really believe that this configuration is the future of rotorcraft, and this future may arrive next month. The only current request for a new helicopter in the USA is the DARPA competition for an Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft. An intermeshing helicopter and a compound helicopter are the two finalists that are competing for the authorization to build a prototype. I used to have great respect for DARPA (I had an interface with them in the 70's) until they pulled off that "Great Challenge", which they called a "Success". I had inside poop from a guy working on the set up for that FARCE. DARPA spent $12M on the setup for that event and only pre-tested the entrants on a flat well defined track. I think that the managers are running DARPA now and apparently they don't understand tech issues very well. I would be very cautious about using DARPA's seal of approval to mean anything. I've begun to think that I'm talking about enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. There is no reason why the affeceadoes of recreational helicopters can't start looking at the 'second coming of rotorcraft'. A little preaching in your new magazine might lead the unconverted out of the wilderness. Dave: I have a problem with Moller AirCar, Ezcopter, Skyscooter and a few of the others with their "positive forward thinking" when they haven't built and tested the item to really know what they are talking about. They claim "Easy to build and Easy to fly" and haven't built and tested the prototype. The Skyscooter does not have collective controls and I believe therefore very questionable autorotation ability.. These have to be rectal extractions since they haven't gone the whole route. I'm surprised at people, however, a friend told me of an investment banker that tried to dump a bunch of bucks on an untried and unflied helicopter kit a few years ago just based on the artist's conception. As I understand it the twin rotor machines can have pedal reversal during autorotation. That would not be something that I wanted to expereince during an engine out emergency. I'm coming to the conclusion that this newsgroup has a different idea or definition of recreational helicopters. A lot of the posts that I see are coming from people interested in big $ commercial ships. Only a very small percentage of the posters seem to be involved in recreational rotorcraft flying. . Stu Fields |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... "Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:jHK4d.83778$%S.11725@pd7tw2no... Hi Stu, Your concerns about price are understood, but for a counter argument;- My background is in manufacturing, and more specifically, the manufacturing of equipment that is used to mechanize and automate the production and assembly lines of other companies. Without qualification, it can be said that the single largest contributor to lower prices, by far, is 'economies of scale' Boy do I understand that..I manufacture a rotor speed alarm system. It is basically for the Safari, but easily modifiable to others. With the small market the individual prices have to be high to cover my costs. I also built some cyclic simulators that I thought should sell for $50. My cost was closer to $200. If I could build 1,000... Yeah you were preaching to the choir here. Roughly speaking, the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter has twice as many different types of parts as the twin-main-rotor helicopter. The twin-main-rotor helicopter will have double the production run due to the commonality of parts. Logic suggests that the twin-main-rotor helicopter will cost less than the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter. Logic does not suggest that the twin main will cost less than the main-tail ship unless you can produce in large quantities. Logic obviously says that the main-tail is less costly for single items. Your argument may hold water for some yet to be determined production numbers. Just remember the market for kit helicopters is not large. If you go into the certified ships, you will learn, as Frank Robinson has learned, there are some overhead costs that can jack your costs up that aren't covered in a simple economies of scale model.. In addition, latterly-located-twin-main-rotors have a number of aerodynamic advantages. I agree here just based on what I see the Kamans doing. I really believe that this configuration is the future of rotorcraft, and this future may arrive next month. The only current request for a new helicopter in the USA is the DARPA competition for an Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft. An intermeshing helicopter and a compound helicopter are the two finalists that are competing for the authorization to build a prototype. I used to have great respect for DARPA (I had an interface with them in the 70's) until they pulled off that "Great Challenge", which they called a "Success". I had inside poop from a guy working on the set up for that FARCE. DARPA spent $12M on the setup for that event and only pre-tested the entrants on a flat well defined track. I think that the managers are running DARPA now and apparently they don't understand tech issues very well. I would be very cautious about using DARPA's seal of approval to mean anything. I've begun to think that I'm talking about enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. There is no reason why the affeceadoes of recreational helicopters can't start looking at the 'second coming of rotorcraft'. A little preaching in your new magazine might lead the unconverted out of the wilderness. Dave: I have a problem with Moller AirCar, Ezcopter, Skyscooter and a few of the others with their "positive forward thinking" when they haven't built and tested the item to really know what they are talking about. They claim "Easy to build and Easy to fly" and haven't built and tested the prototype. The Skyscooter does not have collective controls and I believe therefore very questionable autorotation ability.. These have to be rectal extractions since they haven't gone the whole route. I'm surprised at people, however, a friend told me of an investment banker that tried to dump a bunch of bucks on an untried and unflied helicopter kit a few years ago just based on the artist's conception. As I understand it the twin rotor machines can have pedal reversal during autorotation. That would not be something that I wanted to expereince during an engine out emergency. I'm coming to the conclusion that this newsgroup has a different idea or definition of recreational helicopters. A lot of the posts that I see are coming from people interested in big $ commercial ships. Only a very small percentage of the posters seem to be involved in recreational rotorcraft flying. . Stu Fields |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Stu, I will be interested in the magazine when it becomes monthly and thick
(not with ads not related to helicopterst either). an opinion only mindya Jim "Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... "Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:jHK4d.83778$%S.11725@pd7tw2no... Hi Stu, |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Stu,
I would be very cautious about using DARPA's seal of approval to mean anything. OK forget DARPA. A couple of years ago the US Army requested concepts for a new heavy lift helicopter. Bell proposed the quad-rotor V-44, Boeing proposed a side-by-side configuration and Sikorsky proposed a single rotor with a reverse velocity capability. Sikorsky's concept appears flawed [ http://www.synchrolite.com/1281.html#Potential_Problems ], which leaves multiple main rotors as the only contenders. OK forget what the big boys are doing ~ although it does suggest the future of rotorcraft. Let's consider simple low cost helicopters, similar to those that were built in the beginning. Last year Tom Lawrence, a senior engineer at Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation wrote; "However, the single greatest feature was Igor Sikorsky's faith in the benefits of the single rotor helicopter. Much derided at the time, the single-rotor configuration would come to dominate the worlds helicopters." What an interesting statement. Those who "Much derided" the single-rotor helicopter had good cause. They were not ignorant people. In fact, some of the most knowledgeable rotorcraft people at that time were in Germany. Both Flettner and Focke had built better helicopters then Igor, before he built his. Perhaps Igor's "faith" was a sort of 'blind faith'. Or, perhaps his faith was placed in marketing; to DARPA type government employees. Logic does not suggest that the twin main will cost less than the main-tail ship unless you can produce in large quantities. The main/tail rotor helicopter and the twin-main-rotor helicopter have the same total number of blades and gears etc. The former has big parts and it has small parts. The latter has only identical medium size parts, but twice as many. Savings from volume production starts at 2-off. This is because the machine setup cost, the purchasing cost, etc. etc. are now 1/2 per part for what they would be for only 1-off. I have a problem with Moller AirCar, Ezcopter, Skyscooter and a few of the others.... Me too, but the Intermeshing helicopter is a proven configuration. As I understand it the twin rotor machines can have pedal reversal during autorotation. The intermeshing helicopter does have pedal reversal during autorotation. Offsetting this argument; the intermeshing helicopter (Flettner FL-282) was the first helicopter to enter and exit autorotation. In addition, the US armed services stopped using Kaman Huskie helicopters for training their pilots because they were too easy to fly. If someone starts building recreational twin-rotor helicopters, the people will come. Dave J. "Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... "Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:jHK4d.83778$%S.11725@pd7tw2no... Hi Stu, Your concerns about price are understood, but for a counter argument;- My background is in manufacturing, and more specifically, the manufacturing of equipment that is used to mechanize and automate the production and assembly lines of other companies. Without qualification, it can be said that the single largest contributor to lower prices, by far, is 'economies of scale' Boy do I understand that..I manufacture a rotor speed alarm system. It is basically for the Safari, but easily modifiable to others. With the small market the individual prices have to be high to cover my costs. I also built some cyclic simulators that I thought should sell for $50. My cost was closer to $200. If I could build 1,000... Yeah you were preaching to the choir here. Roughly speaking, the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter has twice as many different types of parts as the twin-main-rotor helicopter. The twin-main-rotor helicopter will have double the production run due to the commonality of parts. Logic suggests that the twin-main-rotor helicopter will cost less than the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter. Logic does not suggest that the twin main will cost less than the main-tail ship unless you can produce in large quantities. Logic obviously says that the main-tail is less costly for single items. Your argument may hold water for some yet to be determined production numbers. Just remember the market for kit helicopters is not large. If you go into the certified ships, you will learn, as Frank Robinson has learned, there are some overhead costs that can jack your costs up that aren't covered in a simple economies of scale model.. In addition, latterly-located-twin-main-rotors have a number of aerodynamic advantages. I agree here just based on what I see the Kamans doing. I really believe that this configuration is the future of rotorcraft, and this future may arrive next month. The only current request for a new helicopter in the USA is the DARPA competition for an Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft. An intermeshing helicopter and a compound helicopter are the two finalists that are competing for the authorization to build a prototype. I used to have great respect for DARPA (I had an interface with them in the 70's) until they pulled off that "Great Challenge", which they called a "Success". I had inside poop from a guy working on the set up for that FARCE. DARPA spent $12M on the setup for that event and only pre-tested the entrants on a flat well defined track. I think that the managers are running DARPA now and apparently they don't understand tech issues very well. I would be very cautious about using DARPA's seal of approval to mean anything. I've begun to think that I'm talking about enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. There is no reason why the affeceadoes of recreational helicopters can't start looking at the 'second coming of rotorcraft'. A little preaching in your new magazine might lead the unconverted out of the wilderness. Dave: I have a problem with Moller AirCar, Ezcopter, Skyscooter and a few of the others with their "positive forward thinking" when they haven't built and tested the item to really know what they are talking about. They claim "Easy to build and Easy to fly" and haven't built and tested the prototype. The Skyscooter does not have collective controls and I believe therefore very questionable autorotation ability.. These have to be rectal extractions since they haven't gone the whole route. I'm surprised at people, however, a friend told me of an investment banker that tried to dump a bunch of bucks on an untried and unflied helicopter kit a few years ago just based on the artist's conception. As I understand it the twin rotor machines can have pedal reversal during autorotation. That would not be something that I wanted to expereince during an engine out emergency. I'm coming to the conclusion that this newsgroup has a different idea or definition of recreational helicopters. A lot of the posts that I see are coming from people interested in big $ commercial ships. Only a very small percentage of the posters seem to be involved in recreational rotorcraft flying. . Stu Fields |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
"Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:XX%5d.528130$M95.119372@pd7tw1no... Stu, I would be very cautious about using DARPA's seal of approval to mean anything. OK forget DARPA. A couple of years ago the US Army requested concepts for a new heavy lift helicopter. Bell proposed the quad-rotor V-44, Boeing proposed a side-by-side configuration and Sikorsky proposed a single rotor with a reverse velocity capability. Sikorsky's concept appears flawed [ http://www.synchrolite.com/1281.html#Potential_Problems ], which leaves multiple main rotors as the only contenders. OK forget what the big boys are doing ~ although it does suggest the future of rotorcraft. The twin rotor helicopter does have a c.g. range advantage and for heavy lifting (internal cargo especially) they would be hard to beat. Also how big of a rotor can you build for a single rotor machine? Multiple blades and you would have a parking problem.. Let's consider simple low cost helicopters, similar to those that were built in the beginning. Last year Tom Lawrence, a senior engineer at Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation wrote; "However, the single greatest feature was Igor Sikorsky's faith in the benefits of the single rotor helicopter. Much derided at the time, the single-rotor configuration would come to dominate the worlds helicopters." What an interesting statement. Those who "Much derided" the single-rotor helicopter had good cause. They were not ignorant people. In fact, some of the most knowledgeable rotorcraft people at that time were in Germany. Both Flettner and Focke had built better helicopters then Igor, before he built his. Perhaps Igor's "faith" was a sort of 'blind faith'. Or, perhaps his faith was placed in marketing; to DARPA type government employees. Logic does not suggest that the twin main will cost less than the main-tail ship unless you can produce in large quantities. The main/tail rotor helicopter and the twin-main-rotor helicopter have the same total number of blades and gears etc. The former has big parts and it has small parts. The latter has only identical medium size parts, but twice as many. Savings from volume production starts at 2-off. This is because the machine setup cost, the purchasing cost, etc. etc. are now 1/2 per part for what they would be for only 1-off. Well not exactly. I get quantity discounts only after I purchase at least 10 things and sometimes the quantity discount doesn't start until I reach 100. Now if these items were rotor blades? Look at the production run for Bell 206 blades and the cost of these things!!! I understand the Schweitzer blades for the 300 are $15,000 each blade( $45,000 a set!!!!) There are quite a few 300s out there.. I will agree that the tooling costs get amortized over the run; but I had better have a good idea what the run is going to be before I start.... I have a problem with Moller AirCar, Ezcopter, Skyscooter and a few of the others.... Me too, but the Intermeshing helicopter is a proven configuration. It hasn't been proven in the price range for personal helicopter operation. How many do you think that you would have to produce to make them cheaper than an R-22 (which most of us can't afford)? If you are really talking about the commercial operating machines, I might agree with you that the intermeshing rotors might have a future. It would depend on acquisition and maintenance costs. One of the prime reasons I play with the experimental class ship is that I can't afford the maintenance costs of a Bell 47 D-1, Schweitzer 300CB etc. The Parts and Labor for these machines is too much for my budget. Especially when I can fly my bird just as fast and hover just as high as either one of them. The maintenance costs have to be as high or probably higher for an intermeshing rotor system. As I understand it the twin rotor machines can have pedal reversal during autorotation. The intermeshing helicopter does have pedal reversal during autorotation. Offsetting this argument; the intermeshing helicopter (Flettner FL-282) was the first helicopter to enter and exit autorotation. In addition, the US armed services stopped using Kaman Huskie helicopters for training their pilots because they were too easy to fly. Could be. I talked to one logging operator that had a hovering auto from 150' with little or no damage to the ship(Kaman). That is a bit high for a Bell 47... No he didn't drop the nose and get a bunch of airspeed. He was over the logging landing and the only place to land was directly below. I would definitely feel safer screwing around in one of those... If someone starts building recreational twin-rotor helicopters, the people will come. You know I agree. But will enough come to make it an economically viable operation?? We'll soon have a picture with the La Flamme ship being built in Canada. Cute mini CH 47 (two seat). Initial target price is well over $100k and will increase from there as reality sets in. I'll still kiss the ring of anyone that comes up with a two seat recreational class twin rotor helicopter kit for under $100k a copy that can demonstrate economical viability for more than 3 years.. Stu Fields Skeptic but hopeful. Dave J. "Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ... "Dave Jackson" wrote in message news:jHK4d.83778$%S.11725@pd7tw2no... Hi Stu, Your concerns about price are understood, but for a counter argument;- My background is in manufacturing, and more specifically, the manufacturing of equipment that is used to mechanize and automate the production and assembly lines of other companies. Without qualification, it can be said that the single largest contributor to lower prices, by far, is 'economies of scale' Boy do I understand that..I manufacture a rotor speed alarm system. It is basically for the Safari, but easily modifiable to others. With the small market the individual prices have to be high to cover my costs. I also built some cyclic simulators that I thought should sell for $50. My cost was closer to $200. If I could build 1,000... Yeah you were preaching to the choir here. Roughly speaking, the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter has twice as many different types of parts as the twin-main-rotor helicopter. The twin-main-rotor helicopter will have double the production run due to the commonality of parts. Logic suggests that the twin-main-rotor helicopter will cost less than the main-rotor/tail-rotor helicopter. Logic does not suggest that the twin main will cost less than the main-tail ship unless you can produce in large quantities. Logic obviously says that the main-tail is less costly for single items. Your argument may hold water for some yet to be determined production numbers. Just remember the market for kit helicopters is not large. If you go into the certified ships, you will learn, as Frank Robinson has learned, there are some overhead costs that can jack your costs up that aren't covered in a simple economies of scale model.. In addition, latterly-located-twin-main-rotors have a number of aerodynamic advantages. I agree here just based on what I see the Kamans doing. I really believe that this configuration is the future of rotorcraft, and this future may arrive next month. The only current request for a new helicopter in the USA is the DARPA competition for an Unmanned Combat Armed Rotorcraft. An intermeshing helicopter and a compound helicopter are the two finalists that are competing for the authorization to build a prototype. I used to have great respect for DARPA (I had an interface with them in the 70's) until they pulled off that "Great Challenge", which they called a "Success". I had inside poop from a guy working on the set up for that FARCE. DARPA spent $12M on the setup for that event and only pre-tested the entrants on a flat well defined track. I think that the managers are running DARPA now and apparently they don't understand tech issues very well. I would be very cautious about using DARPA's seal of approval to mean anything. I've begun to think that I'm talking about enjoying bigamy to a group of Catholic priests. There is no reason why the affeceadoes of recreational helicopters can't start looking at the 'second coming of rotorcraft'. A little preaching in your new magazine might lead the unconverted out of the wilderness. Dave: I have a problem with Moller AirCar, Ezcopter, Skyscooter and a few of the others with their "positive forward thinking" when they haven't built and tested the item to really know what they are talking about. They claim "Easy to build and Easy to fly" and haven't built and tested the prototype. The Skyscooter does not have collective controls and I believe therefore very questionable autorotation ability.. These have to be rectal extractions since they haven't gone the whole route. I'm surprised at people, however, a friend told me of an investment banker that tried to dump a bunch of bucks on an untried and unflied helicopter kit a few years ago just based on the artist's conception. As I understand it the twin rotor machines can have pedal reversal during autorotation. That would not be something that I wanted to expereince during an engine out emergency. I'm coming to the conclusion that this newsgroup has a different idea or definition of recreational helicopters. A lot of the posts that I see are coming from people interested in big $ commercial ships. Only a very small percentage of the posters seem to be involved in recreational rotorcraft flying. . Stu Fields |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Dover short pilots since vaccine order | Roman Bystrianyk | Naval Aviation | 0 | December 29th 04 12:47 AM |
Bush Balked at Direct Order From Guard Commander | WalterM140 | Military Aviation | 8 | September 12th 04 06:36 PM |
Heroux-Devtek wins $10.9M military order for US Air Force engines | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 0 | July 8th 04 12:19 AM |
7 more US troops killed for New World Order | Aerophotos | Military Aviation | 2 | April 5th 04 07:10 AM |
Canada to order replacement for the Sea King | Ed Majden | Military Aviation | 3 | December 18th 03 07:02 PM |