Implications of.....keeping the speed up

Sam Spade writes:

It would be better to do neither.

How would he know what speed to fly?

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Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Just to clarify, I have no moving map, so no depiction of class D C B.
Hence my inquiry on whether it's normal for pilots to have out class
B and low level charts. To clarify, this was flown in hi airspace,
and yes we had our hi enroute out, but it is of little help.

Re check in real time:
I presume you mean as I said by tuning in the ewr vor and monitoring
radials and dme.

Re plan in advance, it's just not always possible. This was a quick
trip, filed from Southern Ontario Canada, no prefered route available,
and the one we chose to file was from CYYZ. No surprise, we didn't
get the route we expected, with CLE centre re routing/vectoring us
enroute. then via vectors (NY) for the arrival. So.... descending 60
west of TEB at 6000 feet at 250 kias, did I break the max 200 kias
within 4 nm and 2500 AGL? I've no idea, perhaps. Hence my inquiry on
how others handle this situation.

Re not knowing how close I am to controlled airspace:
I'd think this is mostly class E airspace I'm in, and is controlled,
isn't it? And I know exactly where I am; I'm 59 dme from the TEB dme,
on the 275 radial. And I'm just setting up my fms for the ils 06 Teb,
so I know the XYZ IF is bearing ABC degress for DEF miles. I just
don't know the distance before I enter the EWR class B airspace. And
nor do I know whether in fact, due to altitude changes, I may end up
under it. Note I'm not saying I can't find out, I just didn't have a
low chart out at this point.

See a few comments further below

If you have RNAV capability and moving maps (like a GPS unit), you
don't need to, since your instruments will show you the controlled
airspaces and tell you if you are within them. If you don't have
that, you might or might not have time to check in real time,
You can also plan your flight in advance and check all of these
details so that you will know where you are at all times without
having to check charts in flight. If you have no idea at all how
close you are to controlled airspace, you need to work on your
navigation and planning skills before you go anywhere near airports of
significant size.


Secondly, if this is reference the elevation of the primary airport,
who really continuously looks up airport elevations as they go (and
airports may be 3 or 4000 msl west of Teb in the appalachians I
presume) adds 2500, and ensures they are above this altitude.

It's above the ground below you. And some areas are quite flat. And
you may have a radar altimeter that lets you know how far you are
above the ground. If you are VFR, you may be able to judge your
altitude well enough by visual means alone.

West of Teb is not that flat. And my altimeter comes alive at 2000
agl. And often IMC.

Further, if I'm descended early into TEB, as expected for an arrival
into the NE, and am at 6000 msl 60 miles to the west, is atc really
expecting a sudden decrease to 200 this far out?

Why would it be sudden? If it comes as a surprise to you while you
are flying along, there's something wrong. And if you are flying below
2500 AGL, you're probably either in the military or you have a small
plane that can't do much better than 200 kts, anyway.

It's not a surprise to me, and perhaps sudden is too harsh a word.
Typically I descend below 10000 at 250 kias. When I want to slow to
200, if possible I aim to pull throttles to idle, and decrease the
descent rate. I'm thinking that since atc is vectoring me, the
planned separation from other aircraft may be reduced by my perhaps
unanticipated speed reduction that far out. Just a thought.

Well thanks for your inputs. I found them useful. I am 100% sure
that corporate pilots do NOT have low level charts out, nor Class B
charts on these trips. I gather from here that in order to ensure
these speed limits are followed, one needs both, plus perhaps a
sectional for the 2500 AGL limitation.

Thanks to Roy too for his response.
Stan

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


It would be better to do neither.


How would he know what speed to fly?


By reading and understanding a basic FAR, and or, by seeking remedial
training from his flight operations department.

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:23:24 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
Sam Spade writes:


It would be better to do neither.


How would he know what speed to fly?


By reading and understanding a basic FAR, and or, by seeking remedial
training from his flight operations department.

Gentlemen, I was hoping for some input on what techniques are used to
ensure compliance with the FARs.

Stan

wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:23:24 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:


Mxsmanic wrote:

Sam Spade writes:



It would be better to do neither.


How would he know what speed to fly?


By reading and understanding a basic FAR, and or, by seeking remedial
training from his flight operations department.


Gentlemen, I was hoping for some input on what techniques are used to
ensure compliance with the FARs.

Stan

Pilots are routinely taken below the floor of Class B airspace when
exceeding 200 knots. Most airline pilots have no idea where the
boundaries or floors of Class B airspace are located. No one cares
except the occasional fed on the jump seat who has a thing about it.

Sam Spade wrote:
wrote:
Pilots are routinely taken below the floor of Class B airspace when
exceeding 200 knots. Most airline pilots have no idea where the
boundaries or floors of Class B airspace are located. No one cares
except the occasional fed on the jump seat who has a thing about it.

But those pilots at least know such a FAR exists. It seems very odd to
me that a CFI or check pilot signed a guy off to fly something doing
more than 250 knots and the guy isn't aware of the FARs.

-Robert, CFII

plus perhaps a
sectional for the 2500 AGL limitation.

It's good to have sectionals available (or at least WACs) but 2500 AGL
should be pretty easy to eyeball.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Could you explain? I'm talking ifr here, and imc. Using my example,
you're at 6000 feet msl over the appalachians. How is 2500 AGL easy
to eyeball?

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 12:01:46 -0500, Jose
wrote:

plus perhaps a
sectional for the 2500 AGL limitation.

It's good to have sectionals available (or at least WACs) but 2500 AGL
should be pretty easy to eyeball.

Jose

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:21:47 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:
Pilots are routinely taken below the floor of Class B airspace when
exceeding 200 knots. Most airline pilots have no idea where the
boundaries or floors of Class B airspace are located. No one cares
except the occasional fed on the jump seat who has a thing about it.

This is what I've observed too. Pilots flying hi level do not bother
with low level charts nor class B charts. Only hi level charts and
sid/star charts. Not saying it is safe, legal or proper, just that
it's normal ops.

Sam, would it be true too for the 2500 AGL within 4 nm limitation too,
in your opinion?

Secondly, is there some atc requirement that if your destination is
the primary airport in a class B, then atc is required to keep you in
class B, and not vector you below?

Stan

Could you explain? I'm talking ifr here, and imc. Using my example,
you're at 6000 feet msl over the appalachians. How is 2500 AGL easy
to eyeball?

I suppose under those circumstances, it would be challenging. However,
the 2500 foot rule only applies within four miles of a class C or D
airport. That would place you right in the traffic pattern, and it's
unlikely that ATC would route you through there unless you are actually
on an approach, at which point you are unlikely to want to speed, and
will have your approach plates handy as a reference.

I suppose you could be landing at Danbury in the fog in an F-15, and be
told to keep your speed up as the Space Shuttle is behind you. And in
that case, you are "authorized by ATC", which is part of that particular
regulation, so you can hustle your buns.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.