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#11
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At 23:30 27 April 2004, Vaughn wrote: Well Robert; I don't know about your relative
flying skills or clubmanagement skills, but Scott certainly has the edge on coherency.My posting got munged for some reason. Not a lot I can do about that! |
#12
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At 00:06 28 April 2004, Mrw wrote:Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours
Robert?Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!Not at all. Of course someone is entitled to ask peoples opinions. But it isn't helpful when they slag off (albeit unintentionally) someone who has put in some considerable effort for us.You can see why that is unhelpful.That's all I have to say on the subject. |
#13
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"Scott Macleman" wrote in message ... Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think. Keep the ASK13. I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into a lot more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance of a familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance costs will be higher too I'm sure! Keep the ASK13 HTH elZee |
#14
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mrw wrote:
Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert? Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!! It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real problem is something like this: Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds available from the Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops to jump through and have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric K13 does not qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting the purchase of a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might well qualify. In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant application and successfully sounded out his mates who were operators on the Union Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in. Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents on the Union (who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on holidays to sunny places as delegates attending conferences on student poverty and homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however. Scott has successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly. Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but Robert can't kick contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer. The majority of respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick with the K13 and stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without a trailer. Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for nothing. When the Council debates the GC's application, all the replies from ras will be quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write it up as an assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger! Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot (you won't be doing much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily checks for years). Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep the K13. Best of luck with your next project. Graeme Cant "Robert Richards" wrote in message ... Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out with the rest of the committee before making statements in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself, but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a lot of embarrassment and caused me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could make it clear that you are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight, the coments below are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt 15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it.Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.Thanks, |
#15
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As an instructor having trained ab initio students in Ka7, Ka13 and Janus,
your remark seems completely unfounded to me. Somebody starting his training on glass learns the same things in the same laps of time as if he would start on wood & fabric. And maintainance on a glass ship is a lot easier than wood & fabric. -- Bert Willing ASW20 "TW" "elZee" a écrit dans le message de ... "Scott Macleman" wrote in message ... Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think. Keep the ASK13. I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into a lot more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance of a familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance costs will be higher too I'm sure! Keep the ASK13 HTH elZee |
#16
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The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from someone with experience. I would have thought that was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that on ras is perhaps open to debate. To answer the original question, as always it depends. I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500 launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one of the best ab initio training gliders I have even flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome in a Grob) If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not go off soaring then either glider will do. If however you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper option. If you are teaching people and are expecting them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first single seat machine then the Grob is the best option. If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then the Grob is the answer. In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways but for overall robustness, suitability for training for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is the best option even if you have to find a trailer for it. At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote: mrw wrote: Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert? Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!! It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real problem is something like this: Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds available from the Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops to jump through and have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric K13 does not qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting the purchase of a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might well qualify. In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant application and successfully sounded out his mates who were operators on the Union Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in. Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents on the Union (who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on holidays to sunny places as delegates attending conferences on student poverty and homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however. Scott has successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly. Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but Robert can't kick contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer. The majority of respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick with the K13 and stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without a trailer. Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for nothing. When the Council debates the GC's application, all the replies from ras will be quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write it up as an assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger! Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot (you won't be doing much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily checks for years). Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep the K13. Best of luck with your next project. Graeme Cant 'Robert Richards' wrote in message ... Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out with the rest of the committee before making statements in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself, but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a lot of embarrassment and caused me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could make it clear that you are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight, the coments below are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt 15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it.Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.Thanks, |
#17
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It may well be that in the rather specialised world of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils aged under 21. Of the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many went on to get their Silver 'C'? However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a Grob, in fact I think they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless, Lasham still continue to use the K13 as their main training glider, they have no plans to replace them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have 1 Duo-Discus, 1 ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit on a DG1000, this is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing the order to a turbo DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and the K13s quite long enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from the maintenance point of view. Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach them to soar, fly cross-country and win competitions at world level so they must be doing something right! W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Don Johnstone" wrote in message ... The original post was asking for an opinion on the relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from someone with experience. I would have thought that was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that on ras is perhaps open to debate. To answer the original question, as always it depends. I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500 launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one of the best ab initio training gliders I have even flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome in a Grob). If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not go off soaring then either glider will do. If however you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper option. If you are teaching people and are expecting them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first single seat machine then the Grob is the best option. If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then the Grob is the answer. In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways but for overall robustness, suitability for training for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is the best option even if you have to find a trailer for it. |
#18
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I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain than a fabric over metal ship. I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship. Having said that… If all you want to do is bash the circuit – stick with the 13. No better than glass once you are downwind. At 05:42 28 April 2004, Elzee wrote: 'Scott Macleman' wrote in message ... Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think. Keep the ASK13. I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into a lot more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance of a familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance costs will be higher too I'm sure! Keep the ASK13 HTH elZee |
#19
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I certainly hope either Scott or the prickly Robert will post as to how
this is resolved. This is better than any soap opera on the tee vee RAS WANTS TO KNOW!!!!!!!! "Scott Macleman" wrote in message ... I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it. We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer. we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we will need to sell our K13. I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several drawbacks. mainly - asking for a grant from the university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it. Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think. Thanks, |
#20
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Sorry Bill, the ATC world is not specialised, it just
teaches people the basics, enough to fly solo, that is all it sets out to do and it achieves it with the Grob Acro. My point was that it is no more difficult to be taught to fly in an Acro than it is in a K13. The Acro is nearer to most GRP single seaters which your soaring members will fly. One question, as an instructor you are given the choice between sitting for 8 hours in the back seat of a K13 or a Grob Acro. Which would you choose, for me there is no contest, sitting for any length of time in the K13 would require a large spend on an osteopath. The question was not about a fleet but which was more suitable for a clubs only 2 seater. For my money, and I have flown most the Acro is the most suitable. I learned to fly in a T31 and instucted in them for many years, I would not recommend them for training today. As an aside the best and most effective 'glider' I have flown for teaching is without doubt the Venture, so I am not against wood or metal and fabric per se. Of course the CAA rules do not allow their use in that way in the wider world. DJ 401 At 14:48 28 April 2004, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote: It may well be that in the rather specialised world of the Air Training Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils aged under 21. Of the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many went on to get their Silver 'C'? However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a Grob, in fact I think they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless, Lasham still continue to use the K13 as their main training glider, they have no plans to replace them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have 1 Duo-Discus, 1 ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit on a DG1000, this is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing the order to a turbo DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and the K13s quite long enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from the maintenance point of view. Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach them to soar, fly cross-country and win competitions at world level so they must be doing something right! W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove 'ic' to reply. 'Don Johnstone' wrote in message ... The original post was asking for an opinion on the relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from someone with experience. I would have thought that was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that on ras is perhaps open to debate. To answer the original question, as always it depends. I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500 launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one of the best ab initio training gliders I have even flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome in a Grob). If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not go off soaring then either glider will do. If however you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper option. If you are teaching people and are expecting them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first single seat machine then the Grob is the best option. If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then the Grob is the answer. In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways but for overall robustness, suitability for training for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is the best option even if you have to find a trailer for it. |
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