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Stand up in Court?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 26th 06, 06:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default Stand up in Court?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KOLB-...QQcmdZViewItem

or http://makeashorterlink.com/?B6E5245BC

"I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are buying this
as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to make it
flyable) Just for liability."

Would a statement like the above or a waiver stand up in a court of law
to keep the seller from losing in court? ...or would this be
considered a way to skirt the law?

The Monk

  #2  
Old February 26th 06, 07:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default Stand up in Court?

I am not lawyer......
But one would think.. that any statement in the sales contract that states
that "the buyer understands that the aircraft is currently not airworthy and
the buyer is responsible to make it airworthy if he desires" would be
enough.

I would not stipulate any items that renders it un airworthy, that would or
could imply that repairing those items only would render the aircraft
airworthy, any thing else that is found out that needs to be repaired after
the sale to make it airworthy, the buyer "might" have some recourse against
the seller for non disclosure.

But as always, "let the buyer beware".
BT

"Flyingmonk" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KOLB-...QQcmdZViewItem

or http://makeashorterlink.com/?B6E5245BC

"I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are buying this
as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to make it
flyable) Just for liability."

Would a statement like the above or a waiver stand up in a court of law
to keep the seller from losing in court? ...or would this be
considered a way to skirt the law?

The Monk



  #3  
Old February 26th 06, 07:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?

"Flyingmonk" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KOLB-...QQcmdZViewItem

or http://makeashorterlink.com/?B6E5245BC

"I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are buying this
as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to make it
flyable) Just for liability."

Would a statement like the above or a waiver stand up in a court of law
to keep the seller from losing in court? ...or would this be
considered a way to skirt the law?


I ain't no lawyer, but if I were sitting on a Jury, it wouldn't be hard to
convince me that the intent was to sell a flying airplane, not a static
display...

Read the ad: "Cruises about 80 mph. This plane is a rocket off the water, I
took first last year in a short takeoff contest, I was off the water in 3.5
sec."
"One float has a very slight bow in the top rail, it does not affect its
performance, or airworthyness. "

He's advertising how well it flys. He says it's airworthy.

And from his E-Bay store "I am acertified ROTAX service center, and A&P, I
buy and sell Rotax parts new and used. I specialize in good used ROTAX 2
cycle engines of all kinds for ULTRALIGHT and EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT. I also
buy and sell ULTRALIGHT and EXPERIMENT AIRCRAFT and sell parts for the same,
as well as FLOATS."
From a past sale: "I will Fly, Hover, Sled, or whatever behind any engine I
sell and I sell a lot of them"

Now, he says: "I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are
buying this as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to
make it flyable) Just for liability."

Now, why is he so concerned about liabiity on THIS aircraft? Is there some
defect that he is trying to cover up? Probably not, but I bet some fast
talking lawyer would try to convince a jury of that.

Of course, if I were on a jury, I personally wouldn't assume that just
because there was an accident (assuming that at some time there is an
accident and things end up in court) that it's somehow the original builders
fault for building an airplane that could be crashed. But that's me.

True story: I work in an office building on the ring road around the
parking lot for a large mall (one of several office buildings . A lot of
people, for whatever reason, like to park in the mall's lot and walk across
the street. The mall parking never fills, no big deal. Right? Monday morning
mail was sent to everyone in the building stating that effective a couple
days before, anyone parking in the mall lot would be ticketed and possibly
have the vehicle towed. Why? As it turns out, someone in another building
had parked in the mall lot, and got hit by a car as they crossed the street
to their office building and sued the mall for damages... Now, I don't know
the details, but personally, if you are careless enough to get hit by a car,
the fault lies with you and/or the person driving. Not a stupid shopping
mall...

The point being, there is no telling what someone will sue for, eh?

But, the real question is, why is our favorite monk shilling for this guy?
(Just kidding. Really,)


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.


  #4  
Old February 26th 06, 07:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Default Stand up in Court?

I don't know how well it works, but it sure is common on kits and
homebuilts.

Flyingmonk wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KOLB-...QQcmdZViewItem

or http://makeashorterlink.com/?B6E5245BC

"I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are buying this
as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to make it
flyable) Just for liability."

Would a statement like the above or a waiver stand up in a court of law
to keep the seller from losing in court? ...or would this be
considered a way to skirt the law?

The Monk


  #5  
Old February 26th 06, 08:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in
news:Qvadnd8SbfEjaZzZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@wideopenwest .com:

Snipola
Of course, if I were on a jury, I personally wouldn't assume that just
because there was an accident (assuming that at some time there is an
accident and things end up in court) that it's somehow the original
builders fault for building an airplane that could be crashed. But
that's me.


Of course, the moment the attorneys found out you were a pilot
you'd be dismissed from selection on this case. Can't go having
peopel that actually KNOW something about the subject they are
deciding on. So much for "jury of your peers."


True story: I work in an office building on the ring road around the

Snipola
The point being, there is no telling what someone will sue for, eh?


Yep. Long story short. I was riding a motorcycle and a guy pulled
that infamous opposing left turn trick on me. I missed hitting him,
but my momentum caused me to slide just into the lane next to me,
whereupon a car coming up behind me in that lane clipped the
handlebars and flipped me. I had already stopped and he was going
like maybe 10 mph max when he hit. I was not injured.

Guess who tried to sue who? Yep. The guy in the car that hit me,
they guy on the motorcyle, tried to sue me and they guy that cut
me off for "medical expenses."

I let my insurance company take care of it. In hindsight, and being
much wiser about such things, I would not have just handed it to my
insurance for them to just pay the guy off. If it were to happen
today, I would find any way within my power to make the guys life as
miserable as possible for filing such a blatently obviously frivolous
lawsuit.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
  #6  
Old February 26th 06, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?


"Flyingmonk" wrote in message

"I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are buying this
as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to make it
flyable) Just for liability."

Would a statement like the above or a waiver stand up in a court of law
to keep the seller from losing in court?


Losing what? Are you anticipating legal ramifications in this transaction?

...or would this be
considered a way to skirt the law?


...."considered..."??? It is *obviously* a ploy to circumvent
responsibility. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I were on a jury and
you tried to weasel around by trotting out that kind of document, my
"Presumption of Guilt-o- Meter" would take about a half second to hit
redline.


  #7  
Old February 26th 06, 10:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?


"Flyingmonk" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KOLB-...QQcmdZViewItem

or http://makeashorterlink.com/?B6E5245BC

"I would like to have a waiver sighed by the buyer,you are buying this
as a NON-FLYING AIRCRAFT(you will have to install the prop, to make it
flyable) Just for liability."

Would a statement like the above or a waiver stand up in a court of law
to keep the seller from losing in court? ...or would this be
considered a way to skirt the law?

The Monk



Won't work. It is not the buyer you need to worry about but the buyers
survivors. One can sign away their own rights but not the rights for
another and nothing you can do will protect you 100% from the buyers
survivors. What some home builders do if they are the builder of record is
part the plane and make sure the parts go to different buyers and that none
of them include the airworthyness certificate or registration.


  #8  
Old February 27th 06, 02:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?


"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in
news:Qvadnd8SbfEjaZzZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@wideopenwest .com:

Snipola
Of course, if I were on a jury, I personally wouldn't assume that just
because there was an accident (assuming that at some time there is an
accident and things end up in court) that it's somehow the original
builders fault for building an airplane that could be crashed. But
that's me.


Of course, the moment the attorneys found out you were a pilot
you'd be dismissed from selection on this case. Can't go having
peopel that actually KNOW something about the subject they are
deciding on. So much for "jury of your peers."

Funny you say this I was called in for jury duty the other day and the DA
dismissed 2 nurses because they might understand how blood was taken for a
blood test on Heroin. I was shocked and made me thing the guy was innocent.
The judge also went on on how cheap companies are that don't pay for jury
duty. He doesn't understand the company cant raise prices like they raise
taxes.
He was a moron I almost blurted out, have you ever had to make payroll and
wondered where the money was coming from.

True story: I work in an office building on the ring road around the

Snipola
The point being, there is no telling what someone will sue for, eh?


Yep. Long story short. I was riding a motorcycle and a guy pulled
that infamous opposing left turn trick on me. I missed hitting him,
but my momentum caused me to slide just into the lane next to me,
whereupon a car coming up behind me in that lane clipped the
handlebars and flipped me. I had already stopped and he was going
like maybe 10 mph max when he hit. I was not injured.

Guess who tried to sue who? Yep. The guy in the car that hit me,
they guy on the motorcyle, tried to sue me and they guy that cut
me off for "medical expenses."

I let my insurance company take care of it. In hindsight, and being
much wiser about such things, I would not have just handed it to my
insurance for them to just pay the guy off. If it were to happen
today, I would find any way within my power to make the guys life as
miserable as possible for filing such a blatently obviously frivolous
lawsuit.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?



  #9  
Old February 27th 06, 02:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?

Won't work. It is not the buyer you need to worry about but the buyers
survivors. One can sign away their own rights but not the rights for
another and nothing you can do will protect you 100% from the buyers
survivors. What some home builders do if they are the builder of record
is part the plane and make sure the parts go to different buyers and that
none of them include the airworthyness certificate or registration.

So if you build a homebuilt you cant sell it. There should be some changes
made in these laws.



  #10  
Old February 27th 06, 03:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: n/a
Default Stand up in Court?

"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
news
So if you build a homebuilt you cant sell it. There should be some changes
made in these laws.


You can sell it. But there is no way to guarantee that if someone wrecks it,
and if there is some way (real or contrived) to blame you (the builder or
previous owner), that you won't end up in court. No different than selling a
used car - particularly if you have ever done your own maintenance. "Why did
you install defective brakes?" "Are you a certified automobile mechanic?"
"What made you think you were qualified to replace the tie rod?" blah blah
blah...

Or, letting someone else use your car (depending on the state, the OWNER can
be liable for damages if some other driver has an accident.) Did you send
your kid off to college with a car that is in your name? Does your kid let
anyone borrow it? Think about it.

On the other hand.

Change the laws? Do you protect someone who sold an airplane because he
realized that it wasn't safe and just wanted to get his money back? Even if
you didn't know it was defective, should you not be liable if you screwed
up? What about the poor people that died because you used a hardware store
bolt to attach the wings?

It a no-win situation when there is an accident. Once lawyers and juries get
involved, common sense goes out the window. Just don't be the one with the
deep pockets.

:-(

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.


 




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