soaring into the future

I think this discussion is going the wrong way. If you are going to
redefine soaring in the future, you don't start with the hardware -
you have to define what the sport of soaring is going to evolve
into.

As far as low cost gliders, guys, they already exist - been to a local
paraglider/hangglider field lately?

But as long (and I want to caveat this statement by emphasizing that
I'm talking about soaring in the US, not other countries) as we
attempt to push soaring as "a cheap way to fly" it will continue to
stagnate.

You see it at all but a few enlightened glider operations: Emphasis
on "how inexpensive" soaring is compared to power flying; training in
beat-up low performance antique gliders, availability of similar beat-
up low performance antique gliders for post-solo/ post license flying
- and the new glider pilot gets bored and wanders off to spend his
money on a pair of new quads, or a bass boat, etc. And you are left
with the old codgers who leaned to fly in primaries and think a 1-26
is the bees knees, or total glassholes who get serious on their own
and discover the dark side - that soaring is a SPORT, not just a way
to fly.

You want to grow soaring? Look at all those clowns riding their $3000
carbon fiber bicycles wearing gaudy spandex. Most will never actually
race, but they enjoy pretending, and socializing, and riding with
their friends in race-like conditions.

Or check out all the motocross bikes being ridden for fun - most never
actually race, but it's fun to pretend, and it's even more fun to play
with the same hardware the pro's use!

Yet at many glider clubs, just try to suggest that the club should
push XC, or racing, or that every student should be required to get
his Silver. The howls of "we don't want to race", "XC is dangerous",
"that's not what the club should be teaching", and "soaring isn't
about XC and racing" get deafening.

Interestingly, this attitude often from some old codger, as he gets
into his pristine ASW-20 for a 3 hour local flight, while the newly
minted glider pilot struggles through his mandated 1-hour flight in
the club single seater (glass, if he's lucky), knowing that if he
DARES to landout, there will be hell to pay (since there isn't a
trailer for the glider, and nobody knows how to derig it anyway...).

So - While new developments in gliders are always welcome (and we
desperately need to replace all those horrible 2-33s and 1-26s in club
fleets), we also have to define our sport, and get that image out
where the people with the time and money to soar are waiting to be
discovered

A final thought - when was the last time there was a cover story about
soaring in Sports Illustrated? Or any story? SSA, what's your
excuse?

Kirk
66

PS: Winch launching is the future. 2000' with no noise, fun even
when there isn't any lift, green (get those Prius buyers
interested...). Combine with sexy glass ships, and people will stop
by to watch the show....

snipPS: *Winch launching is the future. /snip

Watching a winch launch is what got me into this sport (*).

Racing and x/c are what got me hooked on it (**).

-ted/2NO

* Wiener Neustadt, Austria, July 2002.
** Drinking beer while watching sunsets and talking about the day's
flights didn't hurt either!

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
I think this discussion is going the wrong way. If you are going to
redefine soaring in the future, you don't start with the hardware -
you have to define what the sport of soaring is going to evolve
into.

As far as low cost gliders, guys, they already exist - been to a local
paraglider/hangglider field lately?

But as long (and I want to caveat this statement by emphasizing that
I'm talking about soaring in the US, not other countries) as we
attempt to push soaring as "a cheap way to fly" it will continue to
stagnate.

You see it at all but a few enlightened glider operations: Emphasis
on "how inexpensive" soaring is compared to power flying; training in
beat-up low performance antique gliders, availability of similar beat-
up low performance antique gliders for post-solo/ post license flying
- and the new glider pilot gets bored and wanders off to spend his
money on a pair of new quads, or a bass boat, etc. And you are left
with the old codgers who leaned to fly in primaries and think a 1-26
is the bees knees, or total glassholes who get serious on their own
and discover the dark side - that soaring is a SPORT, not just a way
to fly.

You want to grow soaring? Look at all those clowns riding their $3000
carbon fiber bicycles wearing gaudy spandex. Most will never actually
race, but they enjoy pretending, and socializing, and riding with
their friends in race-like conditions.

Or check out all the motocross bikes being ridden for fun - most never
actually race, but it's fun to pretend, and it's even more fun to play
with the same hardware the pro's use!

Yet at many glider clubs, just try to suggest that the club should
push XC, or racing, or that every student should be required to get
his Silver. The howls of "we don't want to race", "XC is dangerous",
"that's not what the club should be teaching", and "soaring isn't
about XC and racing" get deafening.

Interestingly, this attitude often from some old codger, as he gets
into his pristine ASW-20 for a 3 hour local flight, while the newly
minted glider pilot struggles through his mandated 1-hour flight in
the club single seater (glass, if he's lucky), knowing that if he
DARES to landout, there will be hell to pay (since there isn't a
trailer for the glider, and nobody knows how to derig it anyway...).

So - While new developments in gliders are always welcome (and we
desperately need to replace all those horrible 2-33s and 1-26s in club
fleets), we also have to define our sport, and get that image out
where the people with the time and money to soar are waiting to be
discovered

A final thought - when was the last time there was a cover story about
soaring in Sports Illustrated? Or any story? SSA, what's your
excuse?

Kirk
66

PS: Winch launching is the future. 2000' with no noise, fun even
when there isn't any lift, green (get those Prius buyers
interested...). Combine with sexy glass ships, and people will stop
by to watch the show....

Well said.

Bill Daniels

On Dec 27, 8:18*pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?


Dan

"Tuno" wrote in message
...
snipPS: Winch launching is the future. /snip

Watching a winch launch is what got me into this sport (*).

Racing and x/c are what got me hooked on it (**).

-ted/2NO

* Wiener Neustadt, Austria, July 2002.
** Drinking beer while watching sunsets and talking about the day's
flights didn't hurt either!

If you run the numbers, it looks like if you redirect a significant fraction
of the money now spent on aero tows into new gliders, with the remainder
going to support a winch, you can afford nice two seaters - even ASK-21's
with no increasse in the total dollars spent.

The problem is getting your mind around the huge up-front cost of a modern
winch.

If you again run the numbers to see the per-launch costs by amortizing that
up-front cost over a 30 year life you see that the per-launch capital costs
are on the order of $1. The operating costs may be as much as $3 per. If
you charge $10 - $15 per launch and apply the excess to retire a loan taken
out to buy the winch, you should pay it off in two or three years if the
winch is used frequently. Once the winch is paid off, the price could be
dropped to $5 per launch or kept at $15 to pay off all those K-21's and
DG1000's you bought.

The only 'gotcha' is that you have to use the winch agressively so it
generates the cash flow.

By 'agressively' I mean averaging 50 or so launches every day you fly. That
shouldn't be a problem since a lot of pilots will buy several $15 launches
even when there is no hope of lift. One German club did just under 400
launches in one day with a two-drum winch. An RAF cadet group did over 600
launches in a day with a 6-drum winch. 50 shouldn't stress anybody out.

It seems to me that scenario is a win-win-win-win........

Bill Daniels

Very interesting thread.

Im glad to see that a few people enjoy my reports of cheap dirty fun
flying in the upper midwest. I'll keep it up.

Sometimes someone asks me when im going to buy a different glider. my
standard response is "when i can afford something better than what I
have!" Fact is we all are going to buy the best glider we can for the
money. I didnt buy the Cherokee cause I was in love with a 40 year
old wood glider. Or because i thought the forward swept tail (like a
mooney) looked cool. I didnt even buy it because it had stellar 25:1
performance. I only bought it because the price tag equalled the
amount of money I could scrape up over a summer of working, and I
really wanted a glider!

Saying that 40:1 + is necessary for going cross country is a great way
to kill enthusiasm and interest in the sport. now now now, i know that
there is a lot of unlandable terrain out west and it may be a good
idea to either have good performance or lots of alititude out there,
but I have had great fun on some pretty short low altitude flights
here in the midwest. Obviously you can go out there with low
performance but you must tip toe.

If composite construction is so difficult then why not make it metal?
pulling rivets is a pretty simple task.

carry on...

Bill Daniels wrote:

Oh yes, I should mention the rather elegant ESW-2B from Germany which uses
50 car starting batteries as a buffer to store enough power for ~20
launches. This winch is usually connected to the grid to keep the huge
battery pack topped up but it can also use a diesel generator. A grid tap
or a generator adds substantially to the cost but where electricity is
available or where there are extremely noise sensitive airfield neighbors,
it's a viable choice.

I googled it - awesome winch! One for aircraft under 1000 pounds
(instead 1900 pounds like the ESW) should be practical now, including
launching L-13 Blaniks, 2-33, unballasted 15 meter gliders, and all the
Russia/SparrowHawk/Apis/1-26/Ka-6e/etc that you can find.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Great stuff Kirk. I agree with nearly every point you make. I've
personally suffered under the "old codger" effect, have heard the
howls of "XC is dangerous", and have spent some considerable hours
clowning around on expensive bicycles too.

But I think that we DO have to address the hardware side of things in
terms of costs. Those cycling clowns are riding $3000 bikes not
$30000 bikes. The hang and paraglider ships dont necessarily offer
the safety or performance of a sailplane. The low cost gliders that
exist are the vintage neglected birds that can be bought for used car
prices.

Guys like the Cherokee Kid, Tony on this forum, ARE the future of this
sport. He's flying a nearly antique glider cross country nearly every
time he launches. He can do this because his glider and trailer cost
about what a typical college kid could spend on a decent used car. I
hate to think of all the people out there who would love to do what
he's doing but don't have a glider available to them.

And on the topic of launch methods... I believe the future of the
sport is in electric self launch for single seaters and maybe winch
for training and event centers. But that is really another topic.

MM

MM

Hi Tony,

I learned to fly sailplanes in 1979. Trained in a 2-33, a Blanik and
occasionally in a Lark IS-28B2. Most of my training was in the 2-33. I
loved it. I had several instructors but my favorite was an old guy
named Stan. He was firm and fair and rode me hard when needed. The
2-33 was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. I didn't like the
Blanik and the Lark seemed like somthing only astronauts would be able
to fly. But...........along with the 2-33, the little 1-26 was there
and I knew one day I would fly that ship. R.A.S. did not exist back
then, so I didn't know that the 2-33 sucked, and the 1-26 was just a
piece of tin, so it was in total ignorance when, as a student, I took
the 2-33 up to cloudbase and flew it all the way from Issaquah to
Marymore Park and back, under a 4500' cloudstreet. She seemed eager
and up to the task, and I was dumb enough to go for it. Later I got to
fly the 1-26. I flew it many times up on Tiger Mountain, the most
memorable flight was in strong south winds and strong ridge lift. I
was hooked.

Occasionally the guys with the ASW-15's would show up at the field and
I felt I was in the presence of greatness, and badly wanted to fly one
of those someday, but that never tarnished my opinions of those 2
metal birds that gave me so much fun.

Fast forward............I became a hang glider pilot. Advancing
quickly to my advanced rating with all the special check-offs, even
got my winch rating. Some of my favorite flights were drifting at low
level in light ridge lift, just above the trees and feeling every tiny
breeze. Landing in peoples back yards became common place, and I never
feared "going for it"

Today, I fly an Apis-13 that I built from a kit. It gets maybe 35:1.
Like your Cherokee, it can effortlessley drift at low altitudes and if
I need to put her in a small field, I can land in less than 200'. I
can also center a thermal at 200' and continue with the flight.

I am a proponent of this kind of flying, and of gliders that can do
this kind of flying. It is not for everybody, and the guys with the
heavier wing loadings blow by me everytime, but for me..............a
"light" ship that handles well, is easy to rig, easy to fly and climbs
like an eagle is my cup of tea.

Might there be some more folks that like that kind of flying out
there?

Brad
199AK





On Dec 27, 3:36*pm, wrote:
Very interesting thread.

Im glad to see that a few people enjoy my reports of cheap dirty fun
flying in the upper midwest. *I'll keep it up.

Sometimes someone asks me when im going to buy a different glider. *my
standard response is "when i can afford something better than what I
have!" *Fact is we all are going to buy the best glider we can for the
money. *I didnt buy the Cherokee cause I was in love with a 40 year
old wood glider. *Or because i thought the forward swept tail (like a
mooney) looked cool. *I didnt even buy it because it had stellar 25:1
performance. *I only bought it because the price tag equalled the
amount of money I could scrape up over a summer of working, and I
really wanted a glider!

Saying that 40:1 + is necessary for going cross country is a great way
to kill enthusiasm and interest in the sport. now now now, i know that
there is a lot of unlandable terrain out west and it may be a good
idea to either have good performance or lots of alititude out there,
but I have had great fun on some pretty short low altitude flights
here in the midwest. *Obviously you can go out there with low
performance but you must tip toe.

If composite construction is so difficult then why not make it metal?
pulling rivets is a pretty simple task.

carry on...

Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 8:18 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?

Our fees are similar ($600/year, $30/2000' tow, $20/flight), we have
fewer members (around 60, I believe), but the economics are quite
different. We operate from a public airport, and have to rent a hangar
for the tow plane, along with space for glider tie downs and a club
house. I don't know the exact figure, but I suspect airport rent alone
is as much as $1500/month. We have enough money in the bank to stave
off disaster if the tow plane has a major maintenance issue, but that's
about it. We recently bought a newer glider (Grob Twin III), which
required substantial loans from members to cover it until we manage to
sell off one of our older Twin IIs. Some members would like to get a
DG-1000 or similar, but the club simply can't afford it at the moment.

The tow plane and airport fees eat the majority of the fees collected.
A winch would be a great revenue generator and cut or even eliminate the
need for the tow plane. However, it would require a big pile of money
(for us) up front, intensive training of instructors and members, cause
grumbling from the tow pilot members and those who like to tow miles in
search of better conditions, and we'd be likely be forced to move to a
location farther out from the population centers, resulting in a loss of
membership. While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc