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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 13th 17, 02:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 636
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.

Evan Ludeman / T8
  #2  
Old March 13th 17, 03:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 918
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 4:49:05 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.


I understand the emotional argument about this. But what does the actual data show?

In the depths of history when the separate category was established motor gliders were clunky low performance things. I'm guessing that for a few decades the motor gliders records were way worse than the pure glider records.

When did that change? I guess around 1980 with the Janus M, Pik20, DG400 all appearing within a couple of years.

How have the records for motor and non-motor compared in recent times? Does either one actually have a demonstrated advantage over the other? Or is it pretty equal?

My impression is no one is attempting extreme long distance flights (2500 - 3000+ km) without an engine. With a limited number of turnpoints allowed, the risk of landing out in some godawful place in the Andes or whatever are just too high without an engine.

But speed records?

Max wing loading should be be if anything higher without a motor, because all else being equal you can put the weight in the wings, not in the fuse. The pure glider also has a lower wing loading after dumping ballast, making it more likely a gliding performance can be saved. Though the current state of performances are such that if you can't complete the flight fully ballasted then you're not going to get the record anyway.
  #3  
Old March 13th 17, 03:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.
  #4  
Old March 13th 17, 03:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #5  
Old March 13th 17, 04:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 918
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.


I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?
  #6  
Old March 13th 17, 05:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 636
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 11:21:19 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method.. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.


I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?


OLC. Someone on here made the point just a couple of weeks ago that a motor glider enabled an extra risk free 100km a day (whether or not they ran the motor) and that "everyone knows this". I haven't tried to make a case that this is true based on real data, nor do I plan to. I'm going on my gut and how I'd change my own tactics given the self retrieve option.

There's no where near enough data in US records to make a meaningful claim.

Anecdotally, there's the spectacular example of Brian Milner, who aero towed to a remote start, promptly fell off the ridge, ran his motor, got back on the ridge a few miles South where the ridge/wind angle was better, and then flew 2000 OLC km, so far the longest OLC flight in the Eastern US (and a virtuoso performance worthy of the highest respect I can muster). A pure sailplane would have been in the valley around 7am.

I know from my own flying that I leave a fair bit of distance on the table, even on record days. I never have a dedicated crew. I do have club mates that are willing to retrieve me in the event I am forced down (I make sure this is a rare circumstance). There are one or two that would probably be happy to come fetch me after an intentional outlanding, but they never seem to be around on the record days!

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #7  
Old March 13th 17, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 320
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Evan let me know when you need crew. I'll help you keep the motor fairies out of the record books.
  #8  
Old March 13th 17, 06:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 918
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 7:09:12 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 11:21:19 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.

You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.


I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?


OLC. Someone on here made the point just a couple of weeks ago that a motor glider enabled an extra risk free 100km a day (whether or not they ran the motor) and that "everyone knows this". I haven't tried to make a case that this is true based on real data, nor do I plan to. I'm going on my gut and how I'd change my own tactics given the self retrieve option.

There's no where near enough data in US records to make a meaningful claim.

Anecdotally, there's the spectacular example of Brian Milner, who aero towed to a remote start, promptly fell off the ridge, ran his motor, got back on the ridge a few miles South where the ridge/wind angle was better, and then flew 2000 OLC km, so far the longest OLC flight in the Eastern US (and a virtuoso performance worthy of the highest respect I can muster). A pure sailplane would have been in the valley around 7am.

I know from my own flying that I leave a fair bit of distance on the table, even on record days. I never have a dedicated crew. I do have club mates that are willing to retrieve me in the event I am forced down (I make sure this is a rare circumstance). There are one or two that would probably be happy to come fetch me after an intentional outlanding, but they never seem to be around on the record days!


I think OLC is more about average days than record days, and for sure a motor helps then.

When I look at the dozens of times Terry Delore got up before dawn, prepared everything, and took a hella expensive tow from Wigram to the Southern Alps .. until he finally bagged that world record official first 2000 km flight [1]. Just wow. What dedication. What expense. How much easier it would have been if he could have motored into the wave himself...

[1] Ray Lynskey of course made a non-record 2000 km flight a couple of years earlier.
  #9  
Old March 13th 17, 05:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

#popcorn time on a snowy Monday in Michigan. Thanks Evan!

On the surface, I tend to agree with Evan. Motor-gliders can take slightly (or significantly) more risk. Over many attempts to break a record, this ability to stretch further accumulates and ultimately, IMO, makes a HUGE difference. I can see this in contest soaring more and more. Motorgliders make great sense on a practical level, but they are simply not pure gliders. We should respect that and not "downplay it" or pretend that difference doesn't exist. It does exist, no question about it. Anyone who downplays the advantages motorgliders enjoy on cross country flight (especially contest or record flying) is, simply put, not being honest. The data cannot show this difference, of course, nice try. Regardless, an clear advantage exists for motorgliders and therefore allowing them into the pure glider record category is arguably unfair. It will ultimately hurt record flying (for the foreseeable future) as some pure glider pilots who currently pursue records will choose not to bother as they cannot afford the additional motoglider expense. It also leaves a bad taste in certain cases, which I can understand.

In 20 years most all gliders will be motor-gliders. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have a clear advantage, especially in long record flights. Pure glider records deserve to be highly respected. Motorgliders can disable still their motors easily for record attempts and prove that they have achieved a true "apples to apples" soaring record vs pure gliders. Or they can just have the motorglider record which will become more and more competitive and prestigious over time as motorgliders begin to outnumber pure gliders.

That said, I also strongly believe that the time for the US having its "own systems for everything" (rules, records, handicaps, etc) is at an end. Each case of the US running its own system has proven to be incredibly inefficient and provides no measurable positive value to our sport. Why do we allow this? Why do we waste our time? In many cases the great effort required to managing our own custom US systems is arguably highly negative. We should simply adopt the FAI systems and participate in the soaring world as all other soaring countries do, rather than standing alone in the far corner of the soaring world with our arms crossed and mumbling about the genius of our (for example) scoring system (like the SSA GOBs force us all to do today).

Let's put an end to all of this US nonsense across the board, shall we?

Sean
  #10  
Old March 13th 17, 07:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 9:26:19 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
#popcorn time on a snowy Monday in Michigan. Thanks Evan!

On the surface, I tend to agree with Evan. Motor-gliders can take slightly (or significantly) more risk. Over many attempts to break a record, this ability to stretch further accumulates and ultimately, IMO, makes a HUGE difference. I can see this in contest soaring more and more. Motorgliders make great sense on a practical level, but they are simply not pure gliders. We should respect that and not "downplay it" or pretend that difference doesn't exist. It does exist, no question about it. Anyone who downplays the advantages motorgliders enjoy on cross country flight (especially contest or record flying) is, simply put, not being honest. The data cannot show this difference, of course, nice try. Regardless, an clear advantage exists for motorgliders and therefore allowing them into the pure glider record category is arguably unfair. It will ultimately hurt record flying (for the foreseeable future) as some pure glider pilots who currently pursue records will choose not to bother as they cannot afford the additional motoglider expense. It also leaves a bad taste in certain cases, which I can understand.

In 20 years most all gliders will be motor-gliders. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have a clear advantage, especially in long record flights. Pure glider records deserve to be highly respected. Motorgliders can disable still their motors easily for record attempts and prove that they have achieved a true "apples to apples" soaring record vs pure gliders.. Or they can just have the motorglider record which will become more and more competitive and prestigious over time as motorgliders begin to outnumber pure gliders.

That said, I also strongly believe that the time for the US having its "own systems for everything" (rules, records, handicaps, etc) is at an end. Each case of the US running its own system has proven to be incredibly inefficient and provides no measurable positive value to our sport. Why do we allow this? Why do we waste our time? In many cases the great effort required to managing our own custom US systems is arguably highly negative. We should simply adopt the FAI systems and participate in the soaring world as all other soaring countries do, rather than standing alone in the far corner of the soaring world with our arms crossed and mumbling about the genius of our (for example) scoring system (like the SSA GOBs force us all to do today).

Let's put an end to all of this US nonsense across the board, shall we?

Sean


snipThe data cannot show this difference, of course/snip

Of course. The difference is an alternative fact.

There may be some motorglider pilots that fly too low into unlandable terrain. This is an advantage, but a self correcting problem. Other than that, the motor saves the inconvenience and cost of a retrieve, nothing more. The cost is questionable, as the price of the motor is far more than either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help crew. The convenience is undeniable.. Should there be a separate record for people who have paid for the convenience of a one man rigging outfit? Should there be a separate record for the convenience of a glider with automatic connecting controls? Should motorgliders get a speed bonus, due to the inconvenient extra maintenance and expense required?

I have no problem with a separate "pure" glider record in the US. Given that worldwide 80% of new gliders have motors, this will become an increasingly esoteric corner of soaring. We still keep 1-26 records right? But along with that I demand categories separated by wing loading, which has a far greater affect on speed and distance.

Imagine if, in sailing, there were separate records for racing yachts with no engine. No one has ever even considered such a foolish idea. Yet at one time, they were all engineless.
 




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