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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #91  
Old March 21st 17, 06:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:41:24 AM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
So wait... A prime example of the dynamics of psychology in play between having a motor is presented and your argument is that this was years ago so it doesn't matter? I am sorry to say but it is you that seems to have his head in the sand sir. This is the exact mentality that I have been "making up", and yet here it is. As stated in one of my previous posts, it only takes one to start a negative trend in this. Is this not an example of what I have been saying?


Really? So a single example of an idiot from 22 years ago proves that every motorglider pilot flies unsafely? There are countless examples of "pure" gliders flying low into unlandable terrain. We know this because there are nearly countless examples of them crashing there. From this, using your logic, we should eliminate "pure" gliders from the record books since there is obviously a temptation to fly them unsafely in pursuit of records. It only takes one...

I repeat once again, you have yet to produce a single example of a record flight or record attempt showing either a low save or low flight into unlandable terrain, by any current record holder. This should be quite easy for you to do, if such behavior is rampant. The flight logs and tools are readily available. If all you have is an idiot, flying 22 years ago, on a non-record attempt, you are grasping at straws.

It's really kind of a moot point, since 20 years on you will have a hard time finding a still flying "pure" glider for a record attempt - that is the unmistakable trend. Just as there is difficulty today finding a glider without electronic instruments, GPS navigation, water ballast, composite laminate flow airfoils and all the rest of the things decried when they were introduced as the ruination of the sport. I think you might be happiest buying a 1-26 and setting records in it. That's as good as any point in time to freeze.
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  #92  
Old March 21st 17, 10:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).
  #93  
Old March 21st 17, 04:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:48:16 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).


It is interesting that the umbrage directed at auxiliary power is not similarly directed at GPS. The change of "mindset" or aggressiveness at cross country flying is affected far more by GPS (at least here in the west) than a motor. Prior to GPS, you guessed where you were, what the wind was, where the landing sites might be, whether you could make them or not. In the cockpit you juggled a huge chart with a bunch of marks on it, a ruler, a funny little circular slide rule - and worried a lot. Now you know exactly were you are, exactly where the landing sites are, the wind to a high degree of confidence, and your arrival height at any landing site with a high degree of confidence. All calculated continuously without the slightest effort or knowledge.

If you held a contest in the west with long tasks called, and gave the choice of either leaving the GPS behind or disabling the motor, every motorglider pilot I know would disable the motor and keep the GPS. If the contest were between motorgliders with no GPS and "pure" gliders with GPS, my money would be on the "pure" gliders, all in. GPS changed this type of flying much more than motors.

Yet the visceral reaction to motors is not applied to GPS. Yeah, there was some hand wringing about their use in racing for a short time, but now everyone flies with GPS. All records are set with GPS. It's even 'outside assistance' if a $20B satellite constellation counts. No one says a thing about it. Why the double standard?
  #94  
Old March 21st 17, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Funny line of thinking, but I don't think that you are wrong.

TW


Le mardi 21 mars 2017 17:03:32 UTC+1, jfitch a √©crit¬*:
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:48:16 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).


It is interesting that the umbrage directed at auxiliary power is not similarly directed at GPS. The change of "mindset" or aggressiveness at cross country flying is affected far more by GPS (at least here in the west) than a motor. Prior to GPS, you guessed where you were, what the wind was, where the landing sites might be, whether you could make them or not. In the cockpit you juggled a huge chart with a bunch of marks on it, a ruler, a funny little circular slide rule - and worried a lot. Now you know exactly were you are, exactly where the landing sites are, the wind to a high degree of confidence, and your arrival height at any landing site with a high degree of confidence. All calculated continuously without the slightest effort or knowledge.

If you held a contest in the west with long tasks called, and gave the choice of either leaving the GPS behind or disabling the motor, every motorglider pilot I know would disable the motor and keep the GPS. If the contest were between motorgliders with no GPS and "pure" gliders with GPS, my money would be on the "pure" gliders, all in. GPS changed this type of flying much more than motors.

Yet the visceral reaction to motors is not applied to GPS. Yeah, there was some hand wringing about their use in racing for a short time, but now everyone flies with GPS. All records are set with GPS. It's even 'outside assistance' if a $20B satellite constellation counts. No one says a thing about it. Why the double standard?


  #95  
Old March 22nd 17, 03:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Villinski
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

This has been a fascinating discussion. From my perspective as a weekend warrior flying a 32-year-old DG-400 just for fun, I have a couple of thoughts.. The idea that the high price of self-launching, open class ships capable of setting new national records is damaging the growth of our sport is specious. With or without a powerplant, the cost of these ships is well out of reach for the vast majority. National records are set by the very best pilots flying the very best equipment. People contemplating learning to soar don't say "Damn, that $200,000 top-end sailplane is too pricey, so I won't be able to set a new National record, so I guess I won't bother learning how to fly in the first place."

My first ship was an SGS 1-35, and I started flying cross-country in it. I had so many land-outs and retrieves in one season that folks suggested that rather than buy my tireless retrieve crews dinner, I simply pay for the whole club's annual holiday dinner party! This gave rise to the dream of a glider with "self-retrieve" capability. With the "iron thermal" behind my seat, I very rarely have to inconvenience anyone now, although it does happen.

In my experience, not flying for records, but attempting Diamond and personal best flights, I have made a very conscious decision to go below my "hard floor" for an in-air restart while trying to scratch out from a low point -- and I've landed out instead of starting the motor. My point being that if I'm pushing hard to make or continue a flight, I'm going to forget about using the engine for anything but the launch.

For an in-air re-start with the "infernal combustion" engine self-launcher, I will be on downwind for a suitable field, with the wheel down and the landing checklist complete, before I raise the engine. I plan to land, and if the engine starts (it has yet to fail) I am able to fly home. The soaring performance ends at that landing spot, just as it used to in my 1-35. To set records, (or, with my more humble aspirations, notch a 500K flight,) I can't let the soaring performance end, therefore I will fight gravity until it's far too late to use the engine and I must capitulate and land. However, I'm no Mitch Polinsky. Experts like this don't use their engines for a different reason -- they just don't get low in the first place, which is clear in reading his accounts of his record flights.

There are probably a dozen reasons why I prefer to have an older, self-launcher rather than a comparably priced, higher performance, more modern, non-self-launching glider. That's a topic for another thread.
  #96  
Old March 22nd 17, 05:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

There are US records available for the new 13.5m class, but no 20m two-seater or 18m records. Is there no difference between a Duo and an EB28?
Meanwhile, 15m span has two sets of records. The only difference is flaps.
Crazy stuff.
Jim
  #97  
Old March 22nd 17, 10:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Pat Russell[_2_]
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 9:49:05 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
....
A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.


Evan, you seem to be upset about a decision IGC made to discontinue motorglider records - 20 years ago.

There are good reasons to preserve motorglider records at the national level. Your beef is with SSA, not IGC.

-Pat

P.S. Have you heard that they also got rid of cameras and barographs?
  #98  
Old March 22nd 17, 12:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:03:32 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:48:16 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).


It is interesting that the umbrage directed at auxiliary power is not similarly directed at GPS. The change of "mindset" or aggressiveness at cross country flying is affected far more by GPS (at least here in the west) than a motor. Prior to GPS, you guessed where you were, what the wind was, where the landing sites might be, whether you could make them or not. In the cockpit you juggled a huge chart with a bunch of marks on it, a ruler, a funny little circular slide rule - and worried a lot. Now you know exactly were you are, exactly where the landing sites are, the wind to a high degree of confidence, and your arrival height at any landing site with a high degree of confidence. All calculated continuously without the slightest effort or knowledge.

If you held a contest in the west with long tasks called, and gave the choice of either leaving the GPS behind or disabling the motor, every motorglider pilot I know would disable the motor and keep the GPS. If the contest were between motorgliders with no GPS and "pure" gliders with GPS, my money would be on the "pure" gliders, all in. GPS changed this type of flying much more than motors.

Yet the visceral reaction to motors is not applied to GPS. Yeah, there was some hand wringing about their use in racing for a short time, but now everyone flies with GPS. All records are set with GPS. It's even 'outside assistance' if a $20B satellite constellation counts. No one says a thing about it. Why the double standard?


GPS transformed racing. It's a 10+mph advantage, all day long.

It's not as big a deal on record missions. a) records are flown on good days(about which more in a moment), all that computer aided contingency planning is a much larger benefit on weak scratchy days, b) the record route is usually much better planned and studied (using Google Earth, another transformative change) than one has the chance to do for a contest task, making visual navigation much easier, c) turn point rules are simple, and the turnpoints few for a record task. My state record and various badge tasks have all been flown largely on eyeballs and memory. GPS saves me the trouble of getting into position to take a picture and the nervous process of trying to convince a photo processor not to cut the film.

It's certainly nice having all the info that GPS based systems can provide and that is a performance enhancer, no doubt. However, that battle was fought 25 years ago. I'm glad I "grew up" on map, compass, eyeball and flew the final glides on my first contests with circles on a chart (to zero height finish lines). It was hard. It was fun. It was a quarter century ago.

The objection to GPS in competition at the time was simple: it was extravagantly expensive. IIRC a full on GPS system -- simple as they were initially -- was half again what I had in my HP-18 + instruments + trailer. And as soon as GPS was permitted, you were doomed to be a permanent back marker. Really extensive local knowledge could mitigate this, but that wasn't a factor for a newcomer like me.

Today, we are all used to GPS. It's cheap (on the reception end). It's in your phone. There would be no earthly way to prevent its use in the cockpit.

The technology change that's had a far larger impact on my long distance flying than GPS is better weather forecasting. Better tools, accessible to all, make it a much less hit/miss affair to match up an ambitious task to a strong day. When new records are set, I think this is the biggest advantage modern pilots have over their predecessors.

The visceral reaction is because many of us view MGs as a fundamentally different different classification of aircraft. You can belittle that view all you like (and do seem to like!), it's a logical, discernible difference: these aircraft have engines, these others do not. Many of us think that allowing engines where no engines were previously allowed is a big logical change and at least merited a comment and discussion period. This thread is evidence for that.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #99  
Old March 22nd 17, 12:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 6:54:22 AM UTC-4, Pat Russell wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 9:49:05 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
...
A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.


Evan, you seem to be upset about a decision IGC made to discontinue motorglider records - 20 years ago.

There are good reasons to preserve motorglider records at the national level. Your beef is with SSA, not IGC.

-Pat

P.S. Have you heard that they also got rid of cameras and barographs?


Goodness. No, that's not it. If in fact you've misunderstood my objection, my previous response should clarify. If you are simply poking fun, yeah, I get it :-).

There are issues at both the IGC and SSA level.

best,
Evan
  #100  
Old March 23rd 17, 12:07 PM
Kevin Brooker Kevin Brooker is offline
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It has/is an interesting discussion. Thanks for the education entertainment.
 




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