China to acquire Backfires?

Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
Pooh Bear wrote:

The Cold War is over - or did someone forget to mention it to you ?

Somebody needs to tell that to the USN VQ-1 EP-3 crew who were held
prisoner by the Chinese military several days before being allowed to
even speak with the outside world.

Compare that to Gary Powers' treatment if you want to make a Cold War
comparison.

If the USA chooses to spy on the PRC, I'm unsurprised that the PRC wishes to
try
and deter such action. I would be interested to see the reaction of the USA
to
Chinese spy planes off its shores !

The number of Chinese apologists spouting this BS sickening.

I'm sorry that you are sickened by impartial comment.


Chinese ELINT aircraft have plaid spook on the Koreans and Japanese for
years. They are intercepted by those countries' assets as well as those
of our USAF and USN.

Sure, I don't doubt it.

Would Japan be justified to recklessly intercept their PRC spy planes in
international airspace and then take the crew prisoner when they are
forced to land as a consequence of an incompetently flown intercept?

If such a thing happened I'm sure that they crew would be 'invited' to explain
what happened. I doubt that this would happen in public. You can choose whether
that constitutes holding someone prisoner. Unless the crew were carrying passports
( as per civilian flights ) , I'm sure that there would be at the very minimum
immigration procedures to deal with.

Graham

In article ,
Pooh Bear wrote:


The Cold War is over - or did someone forget to mention it to you ?

Somebody needs to tell that to the USN VQ-1 EP-3 crew who were held
prisoner by the Chinese military several days before being allowed to
even speak with the outside world.

Compare that to Gary Powers' treatment if you want to make a Cold War
comparison.

If the USA chooses to spy on the PRC, I'm unsurprised that the PRC wishes
to
try
and deter such action. I would be interested to see the reaction of the
USA
to
Chinese spy planes off its shores !

The number of Chinese apologists spouting this BS sickening.

I'm sorry that you are sickened by impartial comment.

I see, so you would have no problem with a ROK fighter intercepting a
Chinese spy plane in international airspace; causing serious damage to
it; ignoring all radio calls on international distress frequencies
requesting an emergency landing in Korea (closest field); making the
crew exit the plane at gun point; holding the crew incommunicado with
their country and the rest of the world; and then proceeding to examine
in detail the proprietary systems in that aircraft?


Chinese ELINT aircraft have plaid spook on the Koreans and Japanese for
years. They are intercepted by those countries' assets as well as those
of our USAF and USN.

Sure, I don't doubt it.


Do you doubt those countries don't recklessly intercept PRC spook planes
and don't make a habit of taking the crew of other "Most Favored" tading
nations prisoner?



Would Japan be justified to recklessly intercept their PRC spy planes in
international airspace and then take the crew prisoner when they are
forced to land as a consequence of an incompetently flown intercept?

If such a thing happened I'm sure that they crew would be 'invited' to
explain
what happened. I doubt that this would happen in public. You can choose
whether
that constitutes holding someone prisoner.


If in the course of this "invitation" they were denied any contact with
the outside world and their own country for several days....then they
were prisoners.


Unless the crew were carrying
passports
( as per civilian flights ) , I'm sure that there would be at the very
minimum
immigration procedures to deal with.


"Immigration procedures" which require the crew to be held without being
allowed contact with the outside world for several days?




--Mike

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?


I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.


Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)


The same cannot be said for China.



--Mike

Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)

The same cannot be said for China.

Yet, but then it couldn't be said for Japan either for ca. 30 years after WW2.
They started out at the low end, as did e.g. South Korea and Taiwan, and built
up their industrial infrastructure and design abilities until their products
were able to compete on a world stage. I expect China will follow a similar
arc - as it is, chances are pretty good that any plush toy or piece of clothing
you might buy was made in the PRC.

Guy

In article ,
Guy Alcala wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.


Simply making cheap quality goods doesn't equate to
copying/counterfeiting.

Are you saying that after WWII, Japan was the world's biggest infringer
of counterfeiting other peoples' work and/or goods?



Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)

The same cannot be said for China.

Yet, but then it couldn't be said for Japan either for ca. 30 years after
WW2.
They started out at the low end, as did e.g. South Korea and Taiwan,


Again, you're response continues to ignore the main thrust of my point
and that point is not that China makes cheap quality stuff. My point is
that China steals (something like 90% of all software, music, and
videos) are ripped off copies.


built
up their industrial infrastructure and design abilities until their products
were able to compete on a world stage.


A country's products will never be able to compete on a world stage if
that country cannot or will not innovate. As an IT professional, I can
say China hasn't produced a single piece of hardware or software that
any network or IT professional would even remotely consider
deploying...although that doesn't stop them from bootlegging everybody
else's work.

I expect China will follow a similar
arc - as it is, chances are pretty good that any plush toy or piece of
clothing
you might buy was made in the PRC.

Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.


--Mike

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:37:00 GMT, Michael Wise wrote:
In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?


I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.


Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)


The same cannot be said for China.

I guess they didn't invent printing then. Or gunpowder.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:19:01 GMT, Guy Alcala wrote:
Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

And in the 70s and 80s they said the same things about Hong Kong.
Now it's China's turn.

I wonder who'll be next? India?


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:47:56 GMT, Michael Wise wrote:

Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.

You come across as a racist bigot.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:


Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.

You come across as a racist bigot.


Race has nothing to do with it. Everything I've said about China is
true. If you disagree, then please point out where you feel I'm
incorrect instead of slamming down a tired ol' race card.



--Mike

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:


The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?


I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.


Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)


The same cannot be said for China.

I guess they didn't invent printing then. Or gunpowder.



Care to name anything worthwhile they've invented in the last century?
How about last two centuries? No need to invent when they can just steal
and copy. At that (and taking Americans prisoner) they seem quite good.


--Mike