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  #51  
Old May 31st 08, 01:14 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
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Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Robert Sveinson wrote:

You really haven't read the information below have you?


Yes, I have. Do you know who was on the survey?


Is this close enough?

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey was established by the Secretary
of War on November 3, 1944, pursuant to a directive from the late President
Roosevelt.

The officers of the Survey we

Franklin D'Olier, Chairman.
Henry C. Alexander, Vice-Chairman.

George W. Ball,
Harry L. Bowman,
John K. Galbraith,
Rensis Likert,
Frank A. McNamee,
Paul H. Nitze,
Robert P. Russell,
Fred Searls, Jr.,
Theodore P. Wright, Directors.

Charles C. Cabot, Secretary.
The Table of Organization provided for 300 civilians, 350 officers and 500
enlisted men. The Survey operated from headquarters in London and
established forward headquarters and regional headquarters in Germany
immediately following the advance of the Allied armies.






The United States Strategic Bombing Survey
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#eaocar

The U. S. Army Air Forces entered the European war with the firm view
that specific industries and services were the most promising targets
in the enemy economy, and they believed that if these targets were to
be hit accurately, the attacks had to be made in daylight. A word
needs to be said on the problem of accuracy in attack. Before the
war, the U. S. Army Air Forces had advanced bombing techniques to
their highest level of development and had trained a limited number
of crews to a high degree of precision in bombing under target range
conditions, thus leading to the expressions "pin point" and "pickle
barrel" bombing. However, it was not possible to approach such
standards of accuracy under battle conditions imposed over Europe.
Many limiting factors intervened; target obscuration by clouds, fog,
smoke screens and industrial haze; enemy fighter opposition which
necessitated defensive bombing formations, thus restricting freedom
of maneuver; antiaircraft artillery defenses, demanding minimum time
exposure of the attacking force in order to keep losses down; and
finally, time limitations imposed on combat crew training after the
war began.
It was considered that enemy opposition made formation flying and
formation attack a necessary tactical and technical procedure.
**Bombing patterns resulted -- only a portion of which could fall on
small precision targets.** The rest spilled over




on adjacent plants, or built-up areas, or in open fields. Accuracy
ranged from poor to excellent.** When visual conditions were
favorable and flak defenses were not intense, bombing results were at
their best. Unfortunately, the major portion of bombing operations
over Germany had to be conducted under weather and battle conditions
that restricted bombing technique, and accuracy suffered accordingly.
Conventionally the air forces designated as "the target area" a
circle having a radius of 1000 feet around the aiming point of
attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show
that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision
targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was
reached for the month of February 1945. These are important facts for
the reader to keep in mind, especially when considering the tonnages
of bombs delivered by the air forces. Of necessity a far larger
tonnage was carried than hit German installations.





  #52  
Old May 31st 08, 01:16 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Robert Sveinson wrote:

How about the bombing of Prague when the USAAF was AIMING at
Dresden.

How about the bombing of several Swiss cities
when AIMING at targets (supposedly) in Germany?


You've confused target identification/navigation with bombing accuracy.



AAAAH! The USAAF were in fact AIMING at
the Swiss cities that they bombed.
I seeeeeee!








  #53  
Old May 31st 08, 01:17 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"®i©ardo" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Robert Sveinson wrote:
How about the bombing of Prague when the USAAF was AIMING at
Dresden.

How about the bombing of several Swiss cities
when AIMING at targets (supposedly) in Germany?


You've confused target identification/navigation with bombing accuracy.


So any target will do, right one or wrong one, as long as it is bombed
"accurately"?

"Precision" is an integral part of the equation, in that it implies that
the bomber crews knew where they were going and, having got there, knew
what they had to do.

That is NOT the situation with the bombing of Prague, Schaffhausen, Zurich
and Basel.


And these bomber fleets employed PATHFINDERS!





--
Moving things in still pictures!



  #54  
Old May 31st 08, 01:22 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...
Robert Sveinson wrote:

RAF accuracy was as good if not better than that of
the USAAF if the target was vivible.

Did the USAAF precisely hit any target such as
the TIRPITZ, the Dortmund Ems canal,
the Saumur Tunnel, various Gestapo buildings,
the Antheor Viaduct, Amiens Prison?


Yes.



No! I have never heard of any!


That you haven't heard of any does not mean it didn't occur, it means
you're ignorant.


And your list of targets like the Tirpitz, Dortmund Ems Canal,
Saumur Tunnel, Antheor Viaduct, Amiens Prison and various
Gestapo headquarters that the USAAF PRECISELY bombed is
where?
Keep in mind that 4 of the above targets were hit
by Lancasters which carried ONLY 1 bomb,
so they didn't use the *shotgun* method.






  #55  
Old May 31st 08, 01:29 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Graham Sheldon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default History Channel

Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British
achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that
in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had
designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well
have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would
pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their
info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security
reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on
(now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually
produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do
the deed!





For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier"
showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic
flight.


I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my
memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or DVD
home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a
disclaimer
that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more truthful
than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the
director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound
barrier
had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I remember,
any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but
rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de
Havilland's
fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but
didn't
survive.

--
Moving things in still pictures!





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  #56  
Old May 31st 08, 02:02 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"Graham Sheldon" wrote in message
...
Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the
British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing
somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in
researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I
think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British
Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the
British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over
their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any
further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British
research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks
suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed!


Yes that was the case. The British were PROMISED
all the data and designs gained by US experiments
in this field, but wonder of wonders the British
got NOTHING.





  #57  
Old May 31st 08, 09:43 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
®i©ardo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,950
Default History Channel

Graham Sheldon wrote:
Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the British
achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing somewhere that
in actual fact the British were well advanced in researching this and had
designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I think - which could well
have achieved this. Then the US and British Governments decided they would
pool their research to achieve it. So the British handed over all their
info to the US who then refused to hand over their info, due to "security
reasons". The British did not proceed any further but the US continued on
(now with the benefit of all the British research and design) and eventually
produce the Bell X-1 - which looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do
the deed!

Sounds a bit like the atomic bomb development with Britain and Canada
having been major contributors, then being told to p*ss off by the Yanks.

The British, using Canadian uranium and plutonium and the worlds largest
stockpile of heavy water and hydro-electric power, had actually done the
majority of the leg-work already, leaving the American-funded Manhatten
Project to do the rest.

President Truman the reneged on FDR's promise to Churchill to share the
atom bombs.



For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier"
showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic
flight.

I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my
memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or DVD
home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a
disclaimer
that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more truthful
than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the
director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound
barrier
had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I remember,
any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but
rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de
Havilland's
fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but
didn't
survive.

--
Moving things in still pictures!




--
Moving things in still pictures!
  #58  
Old June 1st 08, 12:15 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Graham Sheldon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default History Channel


"®i©ardo" wrote in message
...
Graham Sheldon wrote:
Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the
British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing
somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in
researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52
I think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British
Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the
British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand
over their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed
any further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the
British research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which
looks suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed!

Sounds a bit like the atomic bomb development with Britain and Canada
having been major contributors, then being told to p*ss off by the Yanks.

The British, using Canadian uranium and plutonium and the worlds largest
stockpile of heavy water and hydro-electric power, had actually done the
majority of the leg-work already, leaving the American-funded Manhatten
Project to do the rest.

President Truman the reneged on FDR's promise to Churchill to share the
atom bombs.



For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier"
showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic
flight.

I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and
my
memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or
DVD
home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a
disclaimer
that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more
truthful
than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the
director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound
barrier
had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I
remember,
any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but
rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de
Havilland's
fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but
didn't
survive.

--
Moving things in still pictures!




--
Moving things in still pictures!


I seem to remember also after WW2 the British were well advanced with jet
engine technology and virtually handed all the plans, etc over for the
Russians to have a look at. And then the world was shocked when the
Mig-15 showed up in Korea with a Russian copy of the British jet engine.
What is it with the poms? And then there was Duncan Sands (or however he
spells it) and his infamous white paper which destroyed the British aero
industry almost overnight...


  #59  
Old June 1st 08, 12:55 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"Graham Sheldon" wrote in message
...
Talking about "The Sound Barrier" as a work of fiction showing the
British achieving supersonic flight, I seem to recall reading/hearing
somewhere that in actual fact the British were well advanced in
researching this and had designed and built an aeroplane - the Miles M52 I
think - which could well have achieved this. Then the US and British
Governments decided they would pool their research to achieve it. So the
British handed over all their info to the US who then refused to hand over
their info, due to "security reasons". The British did not proceed any
further but the US continued on (now with the benefit of all the British
research and design) and eventually produce the Bell X-1 - which looks
suspiciously like the Miles M52 - and do the deed!


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...y/q0198a.shtml

Design of the M.52 was nearly complete by 1944, and the UK government
approved the construction of three prototypes. By the end of World War II in
mid-1945, the first prototype was over half-built and may have been ready to
begin flight testing within a year. Unfortunately, a new government had been
elected in 1945 when conservative Prime Minister Winston Churchill was
defeated by the Labour party. The new Labour government felt that too much
money was being wasted on defense-related projects now that the war had been
won, and widespread funding cuts were instituted. One of the projects
eliminated was the M.52, cancelled in February 1946 by Sir Ben Lockspeiser,
the Director of Scientific Research








For military movie fiction you can't "The Sound Barrier"
showing the British being the first to achieve supersonic
flight.


I remember seeing "The Sound Barrier" in the year of its release, and my
memories of it stretch back that far. If you have access to a VHS or
DVD
home version, please correct me ... but ... the film presents a
disclaimer
that it is a piece of fiction, and if despite that it seems more
truthful
than most works of fiction then that may be due to the skill of the
director, David Lean; it was acknowledged in the film that the sound
barrier
had already been overcome by an American aviator, without, as I
remember,
any mention being made that the American aircraft was not jet- but
rocket-powered; and the whole thing is really about Geoffrey de
Havilland's
fatal semi-success in the DH 108 Swallow, when he tickled Mach 1 but
didn't
survive.

--
Moving things in still pictures!






  #60  
Old June 1st 08, 01:06 AM posted to alt.binaries.pictures.aviation
Robert Sveinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default History Channel


"Mitchell Holman" wrote in message
...



The big US propaganda machine was even at work in WWW2, possibly
starting with "Objective, Burma", to belittle the endeavours of their
allies, or to ignore them completely.



Was there a likewise "big British propoganda machine" to credit
their country with feats done by Americans, as in The Sound Barrier
and Bridge Over River Kwai?


Tell us air brush "master" about the american contribution
to the building of the Burma-Thailand railway including the
bridges. Feel free to consult the tables below.


http://www.gunplot.net/kwairailway/s...marailway.html


 




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