Soaring and Critical Mass of Participation.

In another thread it was noted that Television
drives (apparently) many sports. The sad fact
is that unless there is an extreme element to it,
most of those "sports" have reached critical
mass as far as participation levels are concerned.
The exceptions, indoor motocross freestyle jumping,
street luge and such all seem to have a few common
threads. You can get seriously messed up doing it, there is
a way to know,attach yourself to the participant and
get a rush vicariously thru the actions of others.

Soaring needs TV time. To get it it is goint to
have to compete with stuff like I mentioned until
it gets to a critical mass of participation.

I can think of no better example then PROFESSIONAL
DART TOSSING, live from Ceasars Palace....

Why on earth does this work? Because of the HUGE
installed base of 25cent a game dart boards in almost
any bar/pool hall I've seen. There are a BUNCH
of people doing it.

Soaring doesn't have this installed base of viewers, so it needs
to get extreme or edgy. REVIVE the Smirnov derby. Cross country
racing gliders is really no different than cross country racing antique
cars.
There is the equipment story, the pilot story, the where an I going to land
story all of which can be twisted into TV drama. THATS what needs to
happen to get the exposure. Give an advertiser a vehicle to hook a
viewer to sell his stuff.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Scott.

At 16:30 30 January 2005, Plasticguy wrote:
In another thread it was noted that Television
drives (apparently) many sports. The sad fact
is that unless there is an extreme element to it,
most of those 'sports' have reached critical
mass as far as participation levels are concerned.
The exceptions, indoor motocross freestyle jumping,
street luge and such all seem to have a few common
threads. You can get seriously messed up doing it,
there is
a way to know,attach yourself to the participant and
get a rush vicariously thru the actions of others.

Soaring needs TV time. To get it it is goint to
have to compete with stuff like I mentioned until
it gets to a critical mass of participation.

I can think of no better example then PROFESSIONAL
DART TOSSING, live from Ceasars Palace....

Why on earth does this work? Because of the HUGE
installed base of 25cent a game dart boards in almost
any bar/pool hall I've seen. There are a BUNCH
of people doing it.

Soaring doesn't have this installed base of viewers,
so it needs
to get extreme or edgy. REVIVE the Smirnov derby.
Cross country
racing gliders is really no different than cross country
racing antique
cars.
There is the equipment story, the pilot story, the
where an I going to land
story all of which can be twisted into TV drama. THATS
what needs to
happen to get the exposure. Give an advertiser a vehicle
to hook a
viewer to sell his stuff.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Scott,

You should go back and read John Shelton's posts.
He tried very hard to take us down that path and he
hit a stone wall.

My own observation is that those sports are not overseen
by the FAA or other governmental agencies. We can't
get too edgy and yet proclaim to the world and the
bureaucracy that we are a safe, sane sport that doesn't
need to be regulated out of the sky. Those sports
are localized within boundaries that everyone recognizes
(if you are threatened or frightened by them, stay
out of the building). We fly over the heads of an
unsuspecting public and they get paranoid and demand
that the politicians protect them from us.

Well, ultralights are just barely regulated by the federal
government, and their numbers are perhaps roughly the
same as soaring. The difference is that they hand out
"Basic Flight Instructor" certifications much more
readily.

If there is one part of the FAA regulation that has really
confounded this whole thing, it has been the barriers to entry for
instructors. And the barriers to Airplane instructors are
important too, because there is a lot of instructor spillover.

Sport pilot fixes this, some.

Befo
------------------
Airplane SEL Private Pilot Practical Test
Airplane SEL Instrument Practical Test
Airplane SEL Commercial Practical Test
Airplane SEL Instructor Practical Test
Glider Private Pilot Practical Test
Glider Commercial Practical Test
Glider Instructor Practical Test

Airplane SEL Private Pilot written test
Airplane Commercial written test
Airplane Instrument written test
Airplane Instructor written test
Glider instructor written test


After Sport Pilot:
------------------
Sport, Recreational, or Private Practical Test in any cat/class
Sport Pilot Instructor Practical Test in any cat/class

SP written test in any cat/class
SP Instructor written test in any cat/class

Add any new cat/class to your Sport Pilot instructor privileges
by flying with 2 CFIs and having them endorse you.

Seven practical tests with a DPE, and five written tests?
vs.
2 practical tests and two written tests.

There's a lot of crossover from airplane instructors to
glider instructors, so this is relevant.

If you're reading this and you can't see how reducing
the number of tests to about one-third is a significant
reduction to barriers to entry, then I'm surprised.

I for one see this as an opportunity to get the
younger crowds who like less "hassle" into flying.
And in slow, easy to fly aircraft, it doesn't bother me
a bit that they won't go through 12 FAA mandated tests to
get there.

Grow your pool of instructors! If you have to, snatch them
from the 80,000 airplane CFIs, and transition them to glider instructors
under the sport pilot rules without taking a practical test.
And get them a 2-33 or SZD 50-3 to fly.

I know, I know, it's kind of like asking the grass to grow faster

In article ,
Nyal Williams wrote:
At 16:30 30 January 2005, Plasticguy wrote:
In another thread it was noted that Television
drives (apparently) many sports. The sad fact
is that unless there is an extreme element to it,
most of those 'sports' have reached critical
mass as far as participation levels are concerned.
The exceptions, indoor motocross freestyle jumping,
street luge and such all seem to have a few common
threads. You can get seriously messed up doing it,
there is
a way to know,attach yourself to the participant and
get a rush vicariously thru the actions of others.

Soaring needs TV time. To get it it is goint to
have to compete with stuff like I mentioned until
it gets to a critical mass of participation.

I can think of no better example then PROFESSIONAL
DART TOSSING, live from Ceasars Palace....

Why on earth does this work? Because of the HUGE
installed base of 25cent a game dart boards in almost
any bar/pool hall I've seen. There are a BUNCH
of people doing it.

Soaring doesn't have this installed base of viewers,
so it needs
to get extreme or edgy. REVIVE the Smirnov derby.
Cross country
racing gliders is really no different than cross country
racing antique
cars.
There is the equipment story, the pilot story, the
where an I going to land
story all of which can be twisted into TV drama. THATS
what needs to
happen to get the exposure. Give an advertiser a vehicle
to hook a
viewer to sell his stuff.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Scott,

You should go back and read John Shelton's posts.
He tried very hard to take us down that path and he
hit a stone wall.

My own observation is that those sports are not overseen
by the FAA or other governmental agencies. We can't
get too edgy and yet proclaim to the world and the
bureaucracy that we are a safe, sane sport that doesn't
need to be regulated out of the sky. Those sports
are localized within boundaries that everyone recognizes
(if you are threatened or frightened by them, stay
out of the building). We fly over the heads of an
unsuspecting public and they get paranoid and demand
that the politicians protect them from us.





--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I don't think that the current procedures and regs should be viewed as a
"barrier" for new instructors. I worked very hard to become an Instructor
and want new Instructors to have the same type of training. Even with all
my work and continual studying, I still know that there are things that I
can improve on.

Lessening the requirements would only lead to bad training and more
accidents. The goal is not to have more people in the air, but more well
trained people in the air.

Fred Blair

same as soaring. The difference is that they hand out
"Basic Flight Instructor" certifications much more
readily.

If there is one part of the FAA regulation that has really
confounded this whole thing, it has been the barriers to entry for
instructors. And the barriers to Airplane instructors are
important too, because there is a lot of instructor spillover.

Fred,

I agree completely since I worked hard to become an instructor too.
And I wnat new instructors to have the same type of training. And
I want them to meet the same standards I met.

What I don't want is barriers to new instructors that have NOTHING
to do with meeting that standard. Having to schedule months out for
a DPE test, not having a DPE within 200 miles to give the test,
having no idea what the weather or glider or towplane or topilot
or own medical capability will be several months away all are barriers
that have nothing to do with maintaining the standards.

Let me give you an example of "barriers." I recently wanted to
get checked out as an instructor in the back seat of a G103 at
a local club. I called the regular instructor, and she mentioned she
was having an unexpected adverse reaction to a medication and couldn't
fly. I called the club, and the towplane was in annual, which may
be completed that day. But even if it was, the other instructor
was going to be busy training a new towpilot, since two towpilots
had recently quit.

Imagine if I had scheduled several weeks out for a practical test.
No towplane, no towpilot, and no examiner. And a delayed practical test.
How does this improve the standards or training of the student?

Now a contrast. I had me, a second instructor, a towplane, pilot,
student, good weather, and freshly annualled 2-33 just coincidentally at
the gliderport. We happened to have an 8710-11 and a FAR/AIM handy.

The student was an ASEL pilot transitioning to gliders, and
had soloed the 2-33. The other CFIG did a few more flights with him,
signed him off for a "Sport Pilot proficiency check for glider"
and then I flew with him. His flights were flawless, and he met
every standard in the Sport Pilot PTS close enough that I couldn't
see a single mistake.

What would have been gained by having him pay $250 instead?
And scheduling 2-8 weeks out? Nothing. Just hassles, breakdowns,
and barriers to entry.

Instead he's happy, we're happy, and since he is a college professor,
we're trying to convince him to become a CFIG. He's so amped
up on the VALUE he has gotten, he is looking to become more active in our
club.

Fred, I think there are many, many barriers in our sport that
do nothing to improve or even maintain safety or standards.
The perhaps 50 to 1 ratio of instructors to examiners is one barrier.

Other barriers include not enough instructors, or perfectly safe and
flyable aircraft that are out of annual waiting for an IA.

Sport Pilot allows a reduction in barriers, with what I percieve
as NO reduction in standards. And Light Sport Aircraft allows a
reduction in barriers to maintenance, again with what I consider no
reduction in standards or safety.

Morris Yoder has been building dozens of powered parachutes for
customers for over a decade. Now the FAA wants him to take the A&P
written and practical tests so he can become a DAR. Morris asked me
why the FAA wants him to study how to reskin aluminum wings,
or study turbines, to work on powered parachutes?

Barriers to entry. No added safety. No added skill. Pure and
simple just some blanket requirement. The Man, getting you down.

I told Morris to just keep making the FAA inspector come out, time and
time again, and look blankly at the vehicle he knows little about,
and look to Morris every so often to see if he nods yes or no.

After a few months of this pointless exercise, the FAA will
issue a special letter of authorization so Morris can be a DAR,
and common-sense will once again reign...

Fred, I suggest that making something harder to do doesn't
necessarily mean the standards are higher. Sometimes it's just a barrier...

In article et,
f.blair wrote:
I don't think that the current procedures and regs should be viewed as a
"barrier" for new instructors. I worked very hard to become an Instructor
and want new Instructors to have the same type of training. Even with all
my work and continual studying, I still know that there are things that I
can improve on.

Lessening the requirements would only lead to bad training and more
accidents. The goal is not to have more people in the air, but more well
trained people in the air.

Fred Blair

same as soaring. The difference is that they hand out
"Basic Flight Instructor" certifications much more
readily.

If there is one part of the FAA regulation that has really
confounded this whole thing, it has been the barriers to entry for
instructors. And the barriers to Airplane instructors are
important too, because there is a lot of instructor spillover.





--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I think any kind of targeted marketing will always do better
than any generally aimed aviation publicity.

Every single pilot I have ever met, power, glider,
helicopter, etc. all have one thing always in common:
they did SOMETHING in psuedo-aviation before getting
into FAA aviation.

Model aircraft, junior Civil Air Patrol, ultralights,
NASA space camp, visiting aviation museums, subscriptions
to aviation magazines/organization newsletter,
aviation related school courses, working the fuel truck
at the airport, etc.

I have recruited students from each one of these places
and gotten them to fly in an actual aircraft.

Sure, the walk-ins are important too. We had a family of
5 walk in yesterday, and we took one of the kids and
stuck him in the PW-2 with the goggles on and the family
laughed a lot and took a picture. And we gave a ride to
another friend who came with a pilot. Because all the
instructors were booked, we had her fly with one of our
Private Pilot - glider guys who'd been checked out for
backseat. They split the cost ( $37/2 ) and both had
a blast.

I worked the angles hard yesterday trying to get as
many people in the air as I could. I've noticed a LOT
of times people are just milling about. Like any
social setting, it just takes a catalyst. I say "how
'bout you go up with me," or I say "hey, I'm still
workin' with ground prep, why don't you get together
with Jerry/Jonathan/Roque/Mike/Joe and they'll
show you how it's done?"

Do you have 5 guys hangin' out a lot who are pilots but
not instructors? Have you checked them out in the
back seat? Do they understand how to brief brand
new passengers who've never flown in anything before?
Do they take airsick bags, keep the flights short,
do flights in nice smooth air, let the passenger pull the
release so it doesn't go unexpectedly BANG?
Can they give a nice, short, enjoyable flight?

Do these guys appreciate that they can fly twice as
much because they can split the direct cost with a passenger?

Then get them up there! I think they're more
impressed when they go up with a regular ol' license
holder than a CFIG anyway. I think because some people
have their first flight with a CFI they subconsciously
think only CFIs can carry passengers.
I know it sounds silly, but I've noticed a difference...

Get 'em in the air!

In article ,
plasticguy wrote:
In another thread it was noted that Television
drives (apparently) many sports. The sad fact
is that unless there is an extreme element to it,
most of those "sports" have reached critical
mass as far as participation levels are concerned.
The exceptions, indoor motocross freestyle jumping,
street luge and such all seem to have a few common
threads. You can get seriously messed up doing it, there is
a way to know,attach yourself to the participant and
get a rush vicariously thru the actions of others.

Soaring needs TV time. To get it it is goint to
have to compete with stuff like I mentioned until
it gets to a critical mass of participation.

I can think of no better example then PROFESSIONAL
DART TOSSING, live from Ceasars Palace....

Why on earth does this work? Because of the HUGE
installed base of 25cent a game dart boards in almost
any bar/pool hall I've seen. There are a BUNCH
of people doing it.

Soaring doesn't have this installed base of viewers, so it needs
to get extreme or edgy. REVIVE the Smirnov derby. Cross country
racing gliders is really no different than cross country racing antique
cars.
There is the equipment story, the pilot story, the where an I going to land
story all of which can be twisted into TV drama. THATS what needs to
happen to get the exposure. Give an advertiser a vehicle to hook a
viewer to sell his stuff.

Sorry to be so long winded.

Scott.




--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

** Snipped **

Do you have 5 guys hangin' out a lot who are pilots but
not instructors? Have you checked them out in the
back seat? Do they understand how to brief brand
new passengers who've never flown in anything before?
Do they take airsick bags, keep the flights short,
do flights in nice smooth air,
let the passenger pull the release so it doesn't go unexpectedly BANG?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a very interesting point. I've been flying for almost 20 years,
been an airline pilot and flying instructor, but never been passenger rated
in a glider. Everything else you mentioned I sat here nodding knowingly
(been there, done that, cleaned the chunder from the panel...), until the
point about the cable release.

Have to remember that when I get pax rated soon Or at least make sure
they (the punters) know exactly what to expect if club policy wont allow a
"non-pilot" to pull the bung.

Cheers,

James
--
You've been leading a dog's life. Stay off the furniture.

"Centurion" wrote in message
...
Mark James Boyd wrote:

** Snipped **

Do you have 5 guys hangin' out a lot who are pilots but
not instructors? Have you checked them out in the
back seat? Do they understand how to brief brand
new passengers who've never flown in anything before?
Do they take airsick bags, keep the flights short,
do flights in nice smooth air,
let the passenger pull the release so it doesn't go unexpectedly BANG?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a very interesting point. I've been flying for almost 20 years,
been an airline pilot and flying instructor, but never been passenger
rated
in a glider. Everything else you mentioned I sat here nodding knowingly
(been there, done that, cleaned the chunder from the panel...), until the
point about the cable release.

Have to remember that when I get pax rated soon Or at least make sure
they (the punters) know exactly what to expect if club policy wont allow a
"non-pilot" to pull the bung.
Cheers,
James
You've been leading a dog's life. Stay off the furniture.

Most clubs and insurance companies would look at this type of operation as a
"Demo" flight and require a Commercial rated glider pilot to "give the ride"
as stated in the insurance policy. I think the only way you could actually
do a "shared expense ride" with a Private Pilot, would be if the Pvt PIC
actually knew the person before that day, and was not taking the "ride" for
a flight except at the suggestion of someone else and not have it questioned
by the insurance company in the event of an incident.

I'll agree that the original suggestion did not differentiate between Comm
or Pvt, just the "back seat checkout", and yes.. we also require back seat
checkouts on all our pilots who wish to exercise PIC privileges from the aft
pilot compartment.

When flying the SGS 2-33, the release is a BANG if "soft release techniques"
are not used
with the Grob103, it is more of a thud.. but then again.. soft release and
almost nothing is heard.

BT

I guess we all know each other so well, and our 2-33 is so
easy to fly, and the terrain is so flat and landable in every
direction, and our towpilot so experienced, that we
tend to get lax.

I have no idea what our insurer thinks. Other than sending them checks,
I don't think we've ever talked to them.

I've never heard of an insurer denying coverage for a flight
where a private pilot paid at least his fair share of the direct costs,
regardless of how long he'd known the passenger. I'd sure like
to hear an example of this in a glider. When I was a Private Pilot,
I flew plenty and split costs with passengers.

But come to think of it, I've never had any insurance claims

In article 87CLd.791$Tt.788@fed1read05,
BTIZ wrote:
"Centurion" wrote in message
...
Mark James Boyd wrote:

** Snipped **

Do you have 5 guys hangin' out a lot who are pilots but
not instructors? Have you checked them out in the
back seat? Do they understand how to brief brand
new passengers who've never flown in anything before?
Do they take airsick bags, keep the flights short,
do flights in nice smooth air,
let the passenger pull the release so it doesn't go unexpectedly BANG?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a very interesting point. I've been flying for almost 20 years,
been an airline pilot and flying instructor, but never been passenger
rated
in a glider. Everything else you mentioned I sat here nodding knowingly
(been there, done that, cleaned the chunder from the panel...), until the
point about the cable release.

Have to remember that when I get pax rated soon Or at least make sure
they (the punters) know exactly what to expect if club policy wont allow a
"non-pilot" to pull the bung.
Cheers,
James
You've been leading a dog's life. Stay off the furniture.

Most clubs and insurance companies would look at this type of operation as a
"Demo" flight and require a Commercial rated glider pilot to "give the ride"
as stated in the insurance policy. I think the only way you could actually
do a "shared expense ride" with a Private Pilot, would be if the Pvt PIC
actually knew the person before that day, and was not taking the "ride" for
a flight except at the suggestion of someone else and not have it questioned
by the insurance company in the event of an incident.

I'll agree that the original suggestion did not differentiate between Comm
or Pvt, just the "back seat checkout", and yes.. we also require back seat
checkouts on all our pilots who wish to exercise PIC privileges from the aft
pilot compartment.

When flying the SGS 2-33, the release is a BANG if "soft release techniques"
are not used
with the Grob103, it is more of a thud.. but then again.. soft release and
almost nothing is heard.

BT




--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Sometimes I wonder if soaring hasn't already reached a kind of critical
mass.

Apart from other competing interests and local availability factors,
the cost will always limit many people in their endeavours to become a
soaring pilot.

To get the costs down sufficiently to really interest a new kind of
public, you would have to multiply the number of sailplanes and pilots
so much, that our already cluttered airspace would be completely
saturated.


--
stephanevdv
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