"PENTAGON WORKING TO GIVE F-35 JSF NUCLEAR-STRIKE CAPABILITY"

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On May 7, 1:09 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...
...
As a back-drop, 27 years ago,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#Falklands_Conflict
(Seems like yesterday).

Delivered by aircraft as a standoff weapon, the target identification
was down on board the aircraft.

Keith, I was rather hoping the "27 years ago" might
be a hint.
...
It's a bit difficult to hide a CVN from a satellite.

Sure but getting real time location from a satellite is difficult and
VERY expensive

This works, it's civilian,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RADARSAT-1


Quote
the satellite is in exactly the same location and can take the same image
(same beam mode and beam position) every 24 days.
/Quote

Not much good for real time target tracking

1) Any given low earth recon birds will only revisit any given spot
at infrequent periods typically measured in daysor at best hours
rather than minutes

2) Standard recon satellites use optical or infrared methods which
limits their effectiveness in case of clud cover

3) Even if your satellite happens to fly over a CVN you have to
have people analysing the data in real time.

To get round the problems the Soviets launched a whole series
of Radar satellites (RORSAT). These were BIG and typically
powered by type BES-5 nuclear reactors. They weighed in at
around 4 tons and to get decent coverage of even a fairly small
part of the planet they had to launch a whole constellation of
them at vast expense.

AFAIK there have been no such satelllites in service for more
than a decade.

Today, using conventional ordinance, an MRBM
put in the ballpark of a CVN will terminal guide to a
probable direct hit, even choosing where to hit.


And just what combination of sensors and steering do you think
can do that ?


If the CVN+fleet is converted into a floating nuke
strike base, it becomes #1 target to MIRV, as in
10 100kt bombs detonated over a fleet.
...

First find your fleet then target the missiles and get launch authorisation.

Oops the fleet has now moved miles from that location.

I deviated the topic to F-35 (nuke able) for the navy
is to be absolutely unnecessary and of nil usefulness.
(The A-5 Vigilante again).
I'll go further, all nuke weapons should be banned by
treaty from international waters and air space.
Ken

There goes the US nuclear deterrent
Keith

Maybe the nuke subs lurkin' off the US coasts on hair
trigger can go home, if it's ok with American citizens.
Ken


Maybe but the Russian boats wont

Keith

On May 8, 12:51 am, frank wrote:
On May 8, 1:38 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



On May 7, 1:09 pm, "Keith Willshaw"

wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...
...
As a back-drop, 27 years ago,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#Falklands_Conflict
(Seems like yesterday).

Delivered by aircraft as a standoff weapon, the target identification
was down on board the aircraft.

Keith, I was rather hoping the "27 years ago" might
be a hint.
...

It's a bit difficult to hide a CVN from a satellite.

Sure but getting real time location from a satellite is difficult and
VERY expensive

This works, it's civilian,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RADARSAT-1

1) Any given low earth recon birds will only revisit any given spot
at infrequent periods typically measured in daysor at best hours
rather than minutes

2) Standard recon satellites use optical or infrared methods which
limits their effectiveness in case of clud cover

3) Even if your satellite happens to fly over a CVN you have to
have people analysing the data in real time.

To get round the problems the Soviets launched a whole series
of Radar satellites (RORSAT). These were BIG and typically
powered by type BES-5 nuclear reactors. They weighed in at
around 4 tons and to get decent coverage of even a fairly small
part of the planet they had to launch a whole constellation of
them at vast expense.

AFAIK there have been no such satelllites in service for more
than a decade.

Today, using conventional ordinance, an MRBM
put in the ballpark of a CVN will terminal guide to a
probable direct hit, even choosing where to hit.

If the CVN+fleet is converted into a floating nuke
strike base, it becomes #1 target to MIRV, as in
10 100kt bombs detonated over a fleet.
...

I deviated the topic to F-35 (nuke able) for the navy
is to be absolutely unnecessary and of nil usefulness.
(The A-5 Vigilante again).
I'll go further, all nuke weapons should be banned by
treaty from international waters and air space.
Ken

There goes the US nuclear deterrent
Keith

Maybe the nuke subs lurkin' off the US coasts on hair
trigger can go home, if it's ok with American citizens.
Ken

You must have missed Cheney's memo. Its all peace love and
tranquility. Ed has long hair, throws rose petals. They all luv us. no
more hair triggers.

They/us ??? Recently I'm amazed that the value of a house
in Kansas drops 30%, and so Chinese workers can't afford to
buy Big Macs in Beiging.

Now, it takes what minutes to get back to a hair trigger alert, but
most people don't understand that.

Basing SSBN's in national waters provides recallability,
if sent enroute to launch stations, and a moment of sanity
pause.

Guess the politicians are happy. Slip them another beer.

It's been suggested we gather all interested politicians
to witness an H-bomb detonation every few years, also
we could all do scientific experiments, it would be a
"clean bomb".
Imagine a bunch of them sitting around in their lawn
chairs in the Sahara desert, enjoying a beverage, then
BOOM, fun stuff. It would be a real tourist draw too.

We could build a pipeline from the Mediterrean to make
some beach front property, (some clothing optional for Ed).
Do it every 4 years like the Olympics.

Frank you have a lot of stimulating ideas.
Ken

Frank you have a lot of stimulating ideas.
Ken

Best one was when Ronnie was president. They decided to dust off the
old how to survive a nuclear war bit. drive 40 minutes to bunkers that
would have food, water for weeks. Single road to get there.

I told them I'd drive home, put the Nikon on a tripod, get a six pack
and wait for a good shot of the flash and cloud. They were not
amused.

I think they wanted volunteers to do a test one weekend. See if
everybody could drive out there. Don't remember if they ever did. Knew
the engineer who was to look at 'fallout shelters' one was one of
those old hangars with glass windows. You know the type. All over the
AF bases. They weren't thrilled when he asked when fallout shelters
would have glass windows. Not to mention what the probability of glass
breaking.

At least White Sands took it seriously enough to practice it every
year. Printed tons of paper manuals. Went out and played war games.
When was done, had annual hunt for 7 - 10 days of deer if you were
base personnel. Can't beat that. Pretty much blew off October as far
as getting real work done. But for a training and doctrine base, took
stuff seriously. Ever if we were an AF unit on it.

On May 8, 1:30 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...



On May 7, 1:09 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...
...
As a back-drop, 27 years ago,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#Falklands_Conflict
(Seems like yesterday).

Delivered by aircraft as a standoff weapon, the target identification
was down on board the aircraft.

Keith, I was rather hoping the "27 years ago" might
be a hint.
...
It's a bit difficult to hide a CVN from a satellite.

Sure but getting real time location from a satellite is difficult and
VERY expensive

This works, it's civilian,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RADARSAT-1

Quote
the satellite is in exactly the same location and can take the same image
(same beam mode and beam position) every 24 days.
/Quote

Not much good for real time target tracking

We'd sit out after sunset in the dark, having a few brew
around a fire, with the stars above. Every 5 minutes or
so a North - South sat would fly over, visible because
they're still in the sunlight, practically a traffic jam up
there.

1) Any given low earth recon birds will only revisit any given spot
at infrequent periods typically measured in daysor at best hours
rather than minutes

2) Standard recon satellites use optical or infrared methods which
limits their effectiveness in case of clud cover

3) Even if your satellite happens to fly over a CVN you have to
have people analysing the data in real time.

To get round the problems the Soviets launched a whole series
of Radar satellites (RORSAT). These were BIG and typically
powered by type BES-5 nuclear reactors. They weighed in at
around 4 tons and to get decent coverage of even a fairly small
part of the planet they had to launch a whole constellation of
them at vast expense.

AFAIK there have been no such satelllites in service for more
than a decade.

Today, using conventional ordinance, an MRBM
put in the ballpark of a CVN will terminal guide to a
probable direct hit, even choosing where to hit.

And just what combination of sensors and steering do you think
can do that ?

Just simple stuff. What would you use?

If the CVN+fleet is converted into a floating nuke
strike base, it becomes #1 target to MIRV, as in
10 100kt bombs detonated over a fleet.
...

First find your fleet then target the missiles and get launch authorisation.
Oops the fleet has now moved miles from that location.

Well, it's not going to happen.

I deviated the topic to F-35 (nuke able) for the navy
is to be absolutely unnecessary and of nil usefulness.
(The A-5 Vigilante again).
I'll go further, all nuke weapons should be banned by
treaty from international waters and air space.
Ken

There goes the US nuclear deterrent
Keith

Maybe the nuke subs lurkin' off the US coasts on hair
trigger can go home, if it's ok with American citizens.
Ken

Maybe but the Russian boats wont
Keith

It's a good treaty to ratchet things down. Everybody want's
it, so let's get it done.
Ken

On May 9, 10:14 pm, frank wrote:
Frank you have a lot of stimulating ideas.
Ken

Best one was when Ronnie was president. They decided to dust off the
old how to survive a nuclear war bit. drive 40 minutes to bunkers that
would have food, water for weeks. Single road to get there.

I told them I'd drive home, put the Nikon on a tripod, get a six pack
and wait for a good shot of the flash and cloud. They were not
amused.

I think they wanted volunteers to do a test one weekend. See if
everybody could drive out there. Don't remember if they ever did. Knew
the engineer who was to look at 'fallout shelters' one was one of
those old hangars with glass windows. You know the type. All over the
AF bases. They weren't thrilled when he asked when fallout shelters
would have glass windows. Not to mention what the probability of glass
breaking.

About that same time I considered taking a position designing
buildings to be resistant to "severe overpressures", like 100kt
1 mile away, that I regard as very important research since it can
translate into civil building codes to improve structural
survivability
during hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes, the nuke scenario
being a good excuse to pay for the research.

At least White Sands took it seriously enough to practice it every
year. Printed tons of paper manuals. Went out and played war games.
When was done, had annual hunt for 7 - 10 days of deer if you were
base personnel. Can't beat that. Pretty much blew off October as far
as getting real work done. But for a training and doctrine base, took
stuff seriously. Ever if we were an AF unit on it.

Do you think the Atomic Age has arrived?
Ken

"frank" wrote in message
...


Frank you have a lot of stimulating ideas.
Ken

Best one was when Ronnie was president. They decided to dust off the
old how to survive a nuclear war bit. drive 40 minutes to bunkers that
would have food, water for weeks. Single road to get there.

I told them I'd drive home, put the Nikon on a tripod, get a six pack
and wait for a good shot of the flash and cloud. They were not
amused.

I think they wanted volunteers to do a test one weekend. See if
everybody could drive out there. Don't remember if they ever did. Knew
the engineer who was to look at 'fallout shelters' one was one of
those old hangars with glass windows. You know the type. All over the
AF bases. They weren't thrilled when he asked when fallout shelters
would have glass windows. Not to mention what the probability of glass
breaking.

At least White Sands took it seriously enough to practice it every
year. Printed tons of paper manuals. Went out and played war games.
When was done, had annual hunt for 7 - 10 days of deer if you were
base personnel. Can't beat that. Pretty much blew off October as far
as getting real work done. But for a training and doctrine base, took
stuff seriously. Ever if we were an AF unit on it.

I was at CFB Chatham as the Ops O of an air defence battery back in Reagan's
second term. My CO sent me on a pleasant waste of time in the form of a recce
to find a hide for the battery off the base in case a nuclear exchange
threatened. The aim was to shield the battery's men and equipment from a
nuclear attack on the airfield -- it had a 12,000' runway and much of what you
might need in a dispersal or diversion field for large aircraft -- so to be
available for deployment post-strike. I did a dead ground trace for a likely
maximum burst height and looked among the "shadows" for some place to hide
upwards of 200 troops and 70 vehicles. I ran the results by the base ops
staff; they were somewhat horrified. In order for the battery to deploy with
its essential kit, it would have taken about four hours to get it on the road:
two hours to recall personnel and then two hours to draw weapons, stores,
consumables and to issue orders. To get to the hide we had to move the battery
north across the Miramichi on a two lane bridge to the Tabusintac River, some
40 Km north as the crow flies, 50 km by road. IIRC, it was Indian land, and I
am not sure how they would have viewed us landing on their doorstep
unannounced, I obviously could not consult them about the plan. Here's the op
area: http://preview.tinyurl.com/ovcyyr. While the plan showed initiative on
the part of my CO, I really think I was on a fool's errand.

Fortunately, the battery changed command and the successor CO concentrated on
getting the battery ready for where it was likely to deploy for operations
(Germany or Norway). We never exercised the plan.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On May 8, 1:30 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...



On May 7, 1:09 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...
...
As a back-drop, 27 years ago,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#Falklands_Conflict
(Seems like yesterday).

Delivered by aircraft as a standoff weapon, the target identification
was down on board the aircraft.

Keith, I was rather hoping the "27 years ago" might
be a hint.
...
It's a bit difficult to hide a CVN from a satellite.

Sure but getting real time location from a satellite is difficult and
VERY expensive

This works, it's civilian,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RADARSAT-1

Quote
the satellite is in exactly the same location and can take the same image
(same beam mode and beam position) every 24 days.
/Quote

Not much good for real time target tracking

We'd sit out after sunset in the dark, having a few brew
around a fire, with the stars above. Every 5 minutes or
so a North - South sat would fly over, visible because
they're still in the sunlight, practically a traffic jam up
there.


The number of Soviet Optical satellites in orbit at any one time
was rarely more than one. The active life of a satellite was 30 days

snip


Today, using conventional ordinance, an MRBM
put in the ballpark of a CVN will terminal guide to a
probable direct hit, even choosing where to hit.

And just what combination of sensors and steering do you think
can do that ?

Just simple stuff. What would you use?


Its not simple stuff, a MRBM is doing anything up to 4,000 m/sec
on rentry. The plasma around the reentry vehicle is going to make
most sensors useless while also making radical manoeveurs next
to impossible.

Note that while Pershing II used a synthetic aperture radar system
for terminal guidance this was an ancillary to the INS and compared
radar maps of the terrain with the on board maps. Its inclusion
was simply to reduce the CEP from the 400m of the Pershing I to
30m. This system did not have the capability to search for, locate and
guide the warhead to a moving target that may be 30 miles from the aim
point.

Keith

On May 10, 2:02*am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On May 9, 10:14 pm, frank wrote:



Frank you have a lot of stimulating ideas.
Ken

Best one was when Ronnie was president. They decided to dust off the
old how to survive a nuclear war bit. drive 40 minutes to bunkers that
would have food, water for weeks. Single road to get there.

I told them I'd drive home, put the Nikon on a tripod, get a six pack
and wait for a good shot of the flash and cloud. They were not
amused.

I think they wanted *volunteers to do a test one weekend. See if
everybody could drive out there. Don't remember if they ever did. Knew
the engineer who was to look at 'fallout shelters' one was one of
those old hangars with glass windows. You know the type. All over the
AF bases. They weren't thrilled when he asked when fallout shelters
would have glass windows. Not to mention what the probability of glass
breaking.

About that same time I considered taking a position designing
buildings to be resistant to *"severe overpressures", like 100kt
1 mile away, that I regard as very important research since it can
translate into civil building codes to improve structural
survivability
during hurricanes, tornadoes and earthquakes, the nuke scenario
being a good excuse to pay for the research.

At least White Sands took it seriously enough to practice it every
year. Printed tons of paper manuals. Went out and played war games.
When was done, had annual hunt for 7 - 10 days of deer if you were
base personnel. Can't beat that. Pretty much blew off *October as far
as getting real work done. But for a training and doctrine base, took
stuff seriously. Ever if we were an AF unit on it.

Do you think the Atomic Age has arrived?
Ken

No, but at least they had their head in right spot. Could be anything,
nuclear, terrorism, weather related. Major traffic incident. Anything.
Don't train or talk to people, real mess when something happens and
you find out can't communicate, talk to hospitals, find barricades,
whatever.

County I used to live in had bus run into a semi, mass casualty.
Luckily they had planned for that, all agencies worked together. Sort
of woke up the, nothing ever happens here crowd.

Like most places we sort of talk about stuff, when we actually sat
down and looked as all the classified we had to destruct, was a whole
different game rather than saying we'd do it.

Luckily we had a lot of diesel for the generators and would use that
but Pueblo and the recent China Navy aircraft capture shows how some
stuff is just hard to get rid of. Best I guess would be data wipes
then just turn the cooling off so circuits overhead and fry. Or
engineer that in. Add in something corrosive and ability to dump parts
out of an aircraft or ship into the briny deep easily.

On May 10, 4:13 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...



On May 8, 1:30 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...

On May 7, 1:09 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...
...
As a back-drop, 27 years ago,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet#Falklands_Conflict
(Seems like yesterday).

Delivered by aircraft as a standoff weapon, the target identification
was down on board the aircraft.

Keith, I was rather hoping the "27 years ago" might
be a hint.
...
It's a bit difficult to hide a CVN from a satellite.

Sure but getting real time location from a satellite is difficult and
VERY expensive

This works, it's civilian,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RADARSAT-1

Quote
the satellite is in exactly the same location and can take the same image
(same beam mode and beam position) every 24 days.
/Quote

Not much good for real time target tracking

We'd sit out after sunset in the dark, having a few brew
around a fire, with the stars above. Every 5 minutes or
so a North - South sat would fly over, visible because
they're still in the sunlight, practically a traffic jam up
there.

The number of Soviet Optical satellites in orbit at any one time
was rarely more than one. The active life of a satellite was 30 days

Yes, we are sure the Kremlin keeps Keith up to date :-),
what is your ref?

Today, using conventional ordinance, an MRBM
put in the ballpark of a CVN will terminal guide to a
probable direct hit, even choosing where to hit.

And just what combination of sensors and steering do you think
can do that ?

Just simple stuff. What would you use?

Its not simple stuff, a MRBM is doing anything up to 4,000 m/sec
on rentry. The plasma around the reentry vehicle is going to make
most sensors useless while also making radical manoeveurs next
to impossible.

It's a sub-orbital ballistic missile that breaks to subsonic
at high altitude, then it has a lot of time (by electronic
standards) to search, select, aim and fire.

Note that while Pershing II used a synthetic aperture radar system
for terminal guidance this was an ancillary to the INS and compared
radar maps of the terrain with the on board maps. Its inclusion
was simply to reduce the CEP from the 400m of the Pershing I to
30m. This system did not have the capability to search for, locate and
guide the warhead to a moving target that may be 30 miles from the aim
point.
Keith

Things haved changed. A missile can shoot down a satellite
going 15,000 mph, yet you Keith steadfastly hold to the idea
that hitting a huge CVN doing 30 mph is very difficult.

Electronics has revolutized warfare as much as atomic
energy has. I've been in and out the business since 68,
and the pace is astounding, Star Trek type communicators
are now used by 12 yo girls for "sexting".
Keith, a young fella like yourself has probably never seen a
Telex machine.
Classified military electronics is likely 10-15 years ahead of
what is publically known.
Ken

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
snip

Things haved changed. A missile can shoot down a satellite
going 15,000 mph, yet you Keith steadfastly hold to the idea
that hitting a huge CVN doing 30 mph is very difficult.


An orbit is predictable. A seagoing vessel's course isn't. A
satellite can't change course 90º, a CVN can.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired