Great Lakes lake effect snow

PaulaJay1 wrote:

Thoughts on where to get a simple portable system?


Online sales, or direct from the manufacturer:

http://www.preciseflight.com/
http://www.nelsonoxygen.com/
(located at the Bend, Oregon Muni airport, S07)


Retail sales at the local airports' pilot shops:

http://www.airportshoppe.com/aviation_oxygen/index.html


Sporty's catalog sales:

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/


As I posted elsewhere, I have a Nelson system. I also happen to have family
in Bend, Oregon, home of Precise Flight. I was suspecting a slow leak from
the pressure port on my cylinder, so I just hand carried it to their
facility on the airport during a visit there. The folks there fixed up my
cylinder and returned it to me full of O2 at no charge, while I waited.
They also gave me some tips to help extend the life of my system.

I'd tend to suggest that you find an exhibit with a prospective O2 system on
display where you can actually turn the knobs and try putting on the cannula
and make sure that the system feels good for you, and maybe even get some
personal attention like I did at the factory. Of course my system just came
with the airplane. If you aren't familiar with filling and transporting
compressed gas cylinders, it's also worth getting a safety briefing so
you're aware of the hazards. I was initially familiar with CO2 cylinders
for beverage applications, and O2 has a couple of additional safety
considerations.

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the airplane
and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for
beyond
the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
separation.

I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He gives a
pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
.net...
This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which
results
from
the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type
snow
results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that
are
snowing
a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.

The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.

Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?

Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely
to
form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)

"Craig Prouse" said

Cannulas are not effective for delivery above 18,000. I've flown a couple
times at 17,500, and I had to open up the needle valve wide open in order
to
stay alert.

According to the Jepp instrument manual, "If you use a cannula, you should
be aware that the FAA restricts its use to a maximum altitude of 18,000
feet. Above this altitude, you must use an oronasal mask that provides an
adequate seal to your face."

I couldn't find this in the FAR's - 91.211 doesn't mention cannulas. Aside
from the good sensibility of the idea, does anybody know if this is in the
regulations?

-Scott

Sorry, but you are recalling it backwards.

Mike
MU-2


"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
news

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the
airplane
and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for
beyond
the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
separation.

I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He gives a
pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
.net...
This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which
results
from
the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet"
type
snow
results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that
are
snowing
a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.

The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.

Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?

Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely
to
form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sorry, but you are recalling it backwards.

Could be, maybe I'll dig out the URL later.


Mike
MU-2


"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
news

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the
airplane
and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for
beyond
the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
separation.

I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He gives
a
pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
.net...
This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type
which
results
from
the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet"
type
snow
results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds
that
are
snowing
a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.

The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.

Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?

Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more
likely
to
form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:29:53 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

Ok, it's coming up to that season, and was vividly demonstrated when I got
hit by hail driving through Watertown last night. I drive a lot between
Rochester NY and Ottawa Ontario, and Rochester NY and Whitby Ontario, and
frequently those drives are in good VFR conditions except for that band of
lake effect snow coming off of Lake Ontario at Watertown, and the one
coming off of Lake Erie at Buffalo.

This will be my first year with an instrument ticket, and I'm wondering if
I can fly these trips.
Questions:

1. How high up do those bands go? Can I go over them without oxygen?

I can only speak for the Michigan end. Here the lake effect snows
seldom go above about 6,000, BUT early in the season and again on
toward spring all bets are off.

I've not seen any that I couldn't get over with out oxygen. However
that is no guarantee.


2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?

You are asking about snow storms and not lake effect storms in
general.

When I've been in Lake Effect Snow Storms the temperatures were in the
teens, or even lower and I saw no ice accumulation at all.

Just remember there are Lake effect enhanced snows and lake effect
snows. The main thing is to watch the temperatures.

Some people won't fly over water and some won't fly over storms. I do
both, but I try to stay within a reasonable distance to safety. Lake
effect storms are seldom wide...Long, certainly, but many are no more
than 20 or 30 miles wide. Some of them coming off the end of Lake
Eire can be wider.


Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

"Tarver Engineering" writes:

I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He
gives a pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.

Here's the poop from the weather study guide for my IFR training:

The size of the droplets and the frequency with which the strike the
aircraft are important because the character of the ice depends on
whether or not each drop freezes completely before another drop
strikes the same spot. If the droplets pile rapidly on each other
before being completely frozen, the unfrozen parts mingle and spread
out before freezing. If the droplets freeze completely before being
hit by another droplet, a large amount of air is trapped causing the
ice to be opaque and brittle.

and later,

Because of the low adhesive properties of rime, it is generally
readily removed by de-icing equipment.

and

CLEAR ICE - This type of ice has high adhesive and cohesive
properties. Unlike rime, it can spread from the leading edges, and
in severe cases may cover the whole surface of the aircraft.

(From the Canadian Forces Air Command Weather Manual, Chapter 9.) Of
course, the adhesive properties are irrelevant when I don't have
deicing equipment anyway, but the spread still matters.


All the best,


David

2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?

Earlsy one April, I picked up so much clear ice so fast, near
Williamsport, PA, that with full throttle, my Cherokee was down to 85
knots and barely holding altitude.

Fortunately I had an "out." The ceiling was around 2000 agl and I was
able to shoot an approach to Williamsport.

Even if there's no icing, the snow itself can kill you.

Some years ago, a guy took off from somewhere north of here, in New
York or New England. He was heading to an airport south of here, in
Kentucky or Virginia.

His route took him over Phillipsburg VOR, in the center of PA. Here,
it was snowing hard. He was having engine problems as he neared
Phillipsburg, and called the FSS there (it's since been closed, but
then it was on the field at Midstate Airport, a few miles from the
VOR.)

He shot an approach, but had to miss. He then asked where he could
find VMC, and was told to try going to Williamsport.

He got as far as Lock haven, when his engine conked out. Snow had
filled his air intake and choked his engine.

He and his three passengers died.

vince norris

('Vejita' S. Cousin) wrote in message ...
In article ,
I'm interested in the same questions, but further to #1, I was
wondering if anyone can post a complete-idiot's guide to using
portable oxygen in an airplane:

Maybe not exactly what you were looking for but:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

I can say that medical O2, welders O2 and aviation O2 all come off the
same tank, so they are exactly the same product. I don't know if the
various tanks or eqp used have any affect on flow/use thou.


Good luck finding a medical O2 company that will fill a tank. Around
here they just do exchanges. I'm not sure what the welders do. If you
use O2 a lot, just spend the $200 for a giant tank to keep in the
garage. You'll get a couple years of fill out of it.

David Megginson wrote in message ...
Craig Prouse writes:

You can get a really nice portable O2 system for significantly less
than the cost of a handheld GPS. If you fly an airplane that can
get you above 10,000 easily, it really makes sense to have one. Out
here on the west coast, MEAs go up to 10-12K just to fly back and
forth between the largest cities (Portland-San Francisco, San
Francisco-Los Angeles). I spend a lot of time up there.

Thanks for all the info. Any recommendations on manufacturers? How
long does a tank last when you have four people breathing from it
instead of just the pilot?

I really like my AirOx. Its a bit more expensive than a lower end
units (like SkyOx) but has a much better regulator. The amount of O2
you use depends on the altitude (pressure altitude actually). I have
my wife and two kids. The kids have a regular cannula and the wife and
I have the Oxysavers (as far as I know, no one makes Oxysavers for
kids). As a result, we all use the same amount of O2 (the kids use 1/2
as much but waste twice as much). With a full tank we have no problem
at 12,000 feet + for 8 hours. That usually puts us just below 1/2 on
the tank. Be aware that the price to fill O2 at the airport can
REALLY, REALLY vary. I've been charged as little as $20 and as much as
$80 (SAC Exec Patterson). Its also not unusual for even large FBOs to
be out of O2. Also, if you fill at sea level you seem to get more than
in NM or such.


-Robert