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Hiroshima V. Berlin.
For those who think it woudl have been such a wonderful idea to
invade, I call up the image of the Battle Of Berlin. One source states: *Berlin’s fate was sealed, but the resistance continued. Fighting was heavy, with house-to-house and hand-to-hand combat. The Soviets sustained 305,000 dead; the Germans sustained as many as 325,000, including civilians. * That would have been *so* much more human, especially when you woudl have to add the toll of the beach lands, every other city, and village, to say nothing of reducing the army in China. |
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Charles Gray wrote in message . ..
For those who think it woudl have been such a wonderful idea to invade, I call up the image of the Battle Of Berlin. One source states: *Berlin?s fate was sealed, but the resistance continued. Fighting was heavy, with house-to-house and hand-to-hand combat. The Soviets sustained 305,000 dead; the Germans sustained as many as 325,000, including civilians. Your source is outdated. When the Russian archives were opened the reality of the Battle of Berlin was far more grim. The Red Army lost 30,000 alone on the Seelowe Heights and a staggering 600,000 overall. Please note that during the entire war the Germans managed a 4-to-1 kill ratio against the Russians. It is now estimated Russia lost 32 million alone during WW2. Although Berlin fell and Germany lost the war, the German cost was actually low overall compared to the total destruction Germany wrought on Western Europe and Russia. Germany was also hit by 1.3MT of bombs, far more than the Japanese atomic bombs, and survived intact. * That would have been *so* much more human, especially when you woudl have to add the toll of the beach lands, every other city, and village, to say nothing of reducing the army in China. I agree with you there. The Japanese probably would have fought even more tenaciously for their Emperor than the Germans did for Hitler, who actually had already forsaken his own elite Waffen SS and the German people as a whole. Rob |
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From: (robert arndt)
Date: 12/26/2003 10:26 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: (B2431) wrote in message ... From: (robert arndt) snip Germany was also hit by 1.3MT of bombs, far more than the Japanese atomic bombs, and survived intact. Apples and oranges. The number of atomic bombing targets was exactly 2 versus how many targets in Germany? The firebombing of Dresden alone is estimated greater than at least 1 (if not both) of the atom bombs (225,000 killed) and the firebombing of Tokyo in the March '45 raid killed over 100,000- more than Nagasaki. As for surviving "intact" Germany was a shambles. The infrastucture at all levels was destroyed or severely damaged, the Nazi bureaucracy was gone etc. Face it, the German state was in a coma and on life support. Yes, the cities and much of the industry was destroyed but Germany didn't seek surrender after the firepower displayed by the Dresden bombing nor other 1000 bomber raids. Germany was in the process of moving its remaining capabilities into the forests and huge underground facilities in Thuringia that were immune from Allied bombing when news came of Hitler's suicide and the reality of the end came. Still, large parts of the German forces didn't surrender until after VE day or took months to get them back to Germany. In the end Germany still held Norway, Denmark, British islands, Helgoland, parts of northern/central Germany, Austria, and what was Prussia. There were literally thousands of aircraft under construction underground and thousands of missiles stored at various depots. U-boats were still being launched and crewed. Japan, OTOH, didn't have the industry of the Third Reich and had to protect its islands independently. The construction of housing in Japan was also largely wood which burned easily in conventional bombing raids let alone the atomic bombs. And Japan was also facing the Soviet invasion which IMO was the final straw that broke the camel's back. Germany continued to fight until ordered to by Donitz. But the Japanese would have continued to fight until the death under its military leadership because the Japanese Council could only surrender if the vote was unanimous- which the military would not agree to. Only the direct intervention of Emperor Hirohito ended the war. Rob Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Look, your admiration for the Nazis doesn't change the fact that Germany was not "intact." The fuel that should have been used training new pilots was used by front line aircraft which were being flown by increasingly fewer experienced pilots and dropping out of the skies in huge numbers. Those "thousands" of aircraft being built underground, actually dozens, had no hope of ever saving your beloved Reich. Had they gone into service many would have been destroyed in accidents or by air strikes before ever seeing combat. Your observation that Germany still occupied territory beyond its borders is no different from Japan at the time they surrendered. If Germany was so "intact" why was the Marshal Plan needed? Admire those Nazi pigs all you want, but at least be honest with their actual track record. By the way, those late war submarines were a waste of money and resources. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired |
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From: Charles Gray Here's a question--until I got to college, I recall reading all these books about german wartime production, how incredible it was, etc. Every movie has a secret german production, etc, etc. why is that, given that Germany had perhaps the LEAST effecient system of R&D and most especially, of allocating resources of any fo the major powers of WWII? The short answer was that Hitler controlled the purse strings and that the generals had to stand in line to kiss his corroded ass. Furthermore Hitler was a legend in his own mind and made decisions which had no bearing on reality. Example of the former: he watched a V-2 launch and was unimpressed so it got no serious money. He put more money into the V-1 because his favourite butt buddy Goering talked him into it. By the time he changed his mind it was too late. Example of the latter: Hitler decided that all Me-262s should be bombers until it was too late. Had he authorized the fighter version first and earlier in the war they might have put the money into making it a better airplane instead of wasting it on projects like the Me-163. Another thing was he had his generals and admirals conviced the war was not going to start until 1947 or 1948. He decided to not go with advanced technology as early as he could have for that reason. Grand Admiral Raeder, head of the navy, believed him and had planned a balanced navy to include the u-boats Doenitz wanted and aircraft carriers. In reality only one aircraft carrier was built but never went into service because fatso Goering convinced Hitler the Luftwaffe could cover all the navy's needs. There were experiments with carrier aircraft early on, but the R&D monies were taken away for other projects. Basically the R&D monies available to the Reich were spread out on various useless programs which only got more hairbrained as the war went on. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired |
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