Safety pilot "flight time"

Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either
acting as PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Incorrect.

Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements, but, assuming
you meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts my
statement.

Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can log PIC
because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific instances
(ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to meet one of
the other requirements.

[(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that
person-- ...

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot,
is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the ... regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

I assumed we were talking about safety pilot for a pilot who is wearing
a view-restricting device, so the flight falls under the "more than one
pilot required" clause.

A safety pilot just looks out the window and can only log
SIC, they are a required crewmember/observer, but rarely
actually even touch the controls, almost never sole
manipulator.


"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they
are
| not actually sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.
|
| You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are
either acting as
| PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| Anyway, it's your logbook, you can write anything you want
to in it.
| It's only when you want to use your logbook as evidence of
experience
| for a job or rating application that it matters.
|
| Personally, I don't log time I spend as a safety pilot,
but you
| certainly may, either as
|
| [PIC if you are acting as PIC], or as
|
| [SIC if you're not PIC but a required crewmember since the
PIC is using
| a view restricting device].

ATP not operating under FAR 135 or 121 actually can log PIC
the same as any commercial pilot, the must be flying. But
under 121, an ATP assigned as Captain [PIC] can log PIC
while sleeping in the crew bunk room.

Also, ATPs without a CFI can only instruct under 135 or 121
in operations called for in those parts.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
| Dave Butler wrote:
| Ron Natalie wrote:
| Dave Butler wrote:
|
| You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are
either acting as
| PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| Incorrect.
|
| Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements,
but, assuming you
| meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts
my statement.
|
| Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can
log PIC
| because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific
instances
| (ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to
meet one of
| the other requirements.

Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Natalie wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting
as PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

Incorrect.

Hmm, Ron, you are usually precise in your statements, but, assuming
you meant 61.51 below, I don't see anything that contradicts my
statement.

Where in 61.51 does it say anybody (instructor or not) can log PIC
because they are acting as PIC? There are two specific instances
(ATP and multipilot operation). Otherwise you have to meet one of the
other requirements.

[(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that
person-- ...

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot,
is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the ... regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

I assumed we were talking about safety pilot for a pilot who is wearing
a view-restricting device, so the flight falls under the "more than one
pilot required" clause.


Your quote said "Any time you are either acting as PIC ..."

You can agree all you want, but to log PIC you must be the
sole manipulator of the controls unless you also hold a
valid CFI.


61.51
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this
section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part
or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot
performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may
log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot
is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which
that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft
for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command
time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command
of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot
certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized
instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when
the student pilot-

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing
the duties of pilot of command









"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
| On 01/22/07 05:22, Jim Macklin wrote:
| Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they
are
| not actually sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| What? Can you please show the regulation that stipulates
this?
| I've never seen it.
|
|
| Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.
|
| That depends on the agreement made by the pilots ahead of
time. If
| they both agree that the safety pilot shall be PIC, then
he can log
| it that way - for the entire flight. Of course, to do
this, the safety
| pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a
complex endorsement,
| he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).
|
| However, if the pilot flying is PIC, the safety pilot is
required only
| while the pilot flying has a view limiting device on, and
should log
| SIC only for that time.
|
|
|
|
|
| "kevmor" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| | When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under
the
| "duration of
| | flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a
friend
| who is
| | wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for
the
| flight before
| | hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had
the
| hood on, and
| | under the "total flight time" column, put the same as
the
| PIC/when he
| | was wearing the hood?
| |
| | Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most
of
| the flight,
| | you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight,
| because you were
| | a required crew member. But once he takes it off
though,
| you aren't
| | required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC
time.
| |
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
| Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
| Sacramento, CA

BS



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they
are
| not actually sole manipulator of the controls.
|
|
| You need to go back and read the rules again. There are
| certainly several cases where you can log PIC when not
| the sole manipulator of the controls. The safety pilot
| who is acting as PIC is one of them.

On 01/22/07 11:24, Jim Macklin wrote:
You can agree all you want, but to log PIC you must be the
sole manipulator of the controls unless you also hold a
valid CFI.

Not according to the regs you just copied. See below:

For this purpose we're talking about the non-flying pilot
performing safety pilot duties for the flying pilot. If both
pilots agree that the non-flying pilot will be the PIC...



61.51
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this
section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part
or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot
performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may
log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot
is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which
that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft
for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

The non-flying pilot is not sole manipulator of the controls, so
he can't log PIC as a result of this section.


(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

The non-flying pilot is not the sole occupant either...


(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.

He is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot
is required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted
(the pilot flying is using a view limiting device, which now
requires the second pilot).

Note that I'm not suggesting the pilot not flying can log PIC for
the entire flight; only that portion which meets the above regs.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Jim Macklin wrote:


(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.


Jim, the FAA has repeatedly stated that 14 CFR 91.109(b)
is considered to be one of those caes which more than one pilot
is required under the REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE FLIGHT IS
CONDUCTED.

Jim Macklin wrote:
BS



Well there's a reasoned and intelligent comment backed up with facts.
61.51(2)(iii), 61.52(3), and 61.51(4) all provide for logging PIC
when acting as PIC. In this case 61.51(2)(iii) applies as the flight
is conducted under 61.109(2) which requires a second pilot.

You can agree who will be PIC all you want. That decision
will be important in court during a trial for insurance
coverage, etc. But for logging the time, unless you are the
sole manipulator, a CFI or an ATP in airline operations, you
can't log PIC unless you are flying. If all you are is a
safety pilot, you can't be PIC for the purpose of logging
the time. You can be pic for the purpose of deciding
whether Joe or Fred is legally required to pay from their
estate for the damages.

FAR 1.1
Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation
and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during
the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating,
if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.





"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
| On 01/22/07 11:24, Jim Macklin wrote:
| You can agree all you want, but to log PIC you must be
the
| sole manipulator of the controls unless you also hold a
| valid CFI.
|
| Not according to the regs you just copied. See below:
|
| For this purpose we're talking about the non-flying pilot
| performing safety pilot duties for the flying pilot. If
both
| pilots agree that the non-flying pilot will be the PIC...
|
|
|
| 61.51
| (c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in
this
| section may be used to:
|
| (1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this
part
| or a privilege authorized under this part; or
|
| (2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
| this part.
|
| (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student
pilot
| performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
| requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot
may
| log as solo flight time only that flight time when the
pilot
| is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
|
| (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
| recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
| pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during
which
| that person-
|
| (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft
| for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
|
| The non-flying pilot is not sole manipulator of the
controls, so
| he can't log PIC as a result of this section.
|
|
| (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
|
| The non-flying pilot is not the sole occupant either...
|
|
| (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as
pilot in
| command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
| required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the
| regulations under which the flight is conducted.
|
| He is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot
| is required by the regulations under which the flight is
conducted
| (the pilot flying is using a view limiting device, which
now
| requires the second pilot).
|
| Note that I'm not suggesting the pilot not flying can log
PIC for
| the entire flight; only that portion which meets the above
regs.
|
| --
| Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
| Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
| Sacramento, CA