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Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team Selection Policy Changes



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 18th 10, 11:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 321
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team Selection Policy Changes

The US Team Committee, in cooperation with the Rules
Committee and based on responses received through the on-line
competition survey conducted last year, has decided to recommend to
the SSA Board of Directors at its winter meeting that they approve
amendment to the Selection Policy for US Club Class Teams selected for
WGC participation starting in 2011.

1) We will no longer restrict eligibility to pilots
who have not participated in a previous WGC event, i.e. all
participants in Sports Class Nationals flying eligible gliders will be
eligible

2) We will broaden the list of gliders which may be
flown to generate eligible scores for Club Class selection in our
Sports Class Nationals. It is anticipated that most Standard, 15
Meter, and 18 Meter gliders will be accommodated.

We are currently rewriting our Selection Policy to
reflect these changes and will publish the text in draft form as soon
as possible. A draft Eligible Glider List will be also be produced
incorporating these changes. If approved, our selection next fall for
the year two pilot for the 2012 WGC will be made on this basis.

These proposed changes do not affect selection of the
year one pilot - i.e. selected two years in advance of the 2012 Sports
Class WGC in Argentina, provided as currently required that the pilot
participates in the 2011 pre-World contest there.

Given that these changes are being proposed, we wanted
to disseminate the news as early as possible so that interested
pilots could plan their 2011 competition schedules accordingly

For the Committee
DJ
Ads
  #2  
Old September 18th 10, 12:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

On Sep 18, 4:45*am, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
* * * * * * * * The US Team Committee, in cooperation with the Rules
Committee and based on responses received through the on-line
competition survey conducted last year, has decided to recommend to
the SSA Board of Directors at its winter meeting that they approve
amendment to the Selection Policy for US Club Class Teams selected for
WGC participation starting in 2011.

* * * * * * * * 1) We will no longer restrict eligibility to pilots
who have not participated in a previous WGC event, i.e. all
participants in Sports Class Nationals flying eligible gliders will be
eligible

* * * * * * * * 2) We will broaden the list of gliders which may be
flown to generate eligible scores for Club Class selection in our
Sports Class Nationals. *It is anticipated that most Standard, 15
Meter, and 18 Meter gliders will be accommodated.

* * * * * * * * We are currently rewriting our Selection Policy to
reflect these changes and will publish the text in draft form as soon
as possible. A draft Eligible Glider List will be also be produced
incorporating these changes. If approved, our selection next fall for
the year two pilot for the 2012 WGC will be made on this basis.

* * * * * * * * These proposed changes do not affect selection of the
year one pilot - i.e. selected two years in advance of the 2012 Sports
Class WGC in Argentina, provided as currently required that the pilot
participates in the 2011 pre-World contest there.

* * * * * * * * Given that these changes are being proposed, we wanted
to disseminate the news *as early as possible so that interested
pilots could plan their 2011 competition schedules accordingly

For the Committee
DJ



Money talks!

..
  #3  
Old September 18th 10, 02:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ray Jay
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

* * * * * * * * 2) We will broaden the list of gliders which may be
flown to generate eligible scores for Club Class selection in our
Sports Class Nationals. *It is anticipated that most Standard, 15
Meter, and 18 Meter gliders will be accommodated.


So it seems those who resisted the establishment of a bona fide Club
Class here in the U.S. have now *******ized it.

How utterly inane and comically predictable!

Ray Cornay

  #4  
Old September 18th 10, 05:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

On Sep 18, 4:45*am, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
* * * * * * * * The US Team Committee, in cooperation with the Rules
Committee and based on responses received through the on-line
competition survey conducted last year, has decided to recommend to
the SSA Board of Directors at its winter meeting that they approve
amendment to the Selection Policy for US Club Class Teams selected for
WGC participation starting in 2011.

* * * * * * * * 1) We will no longer restrict eligibility to pilots
who have not participated in a previous WGC event, i.e. all
participants in Sports Class Nationals flying eligible gliders will be
eligible

* * * * * * * * 2) We will broaden the list of gliders which may be
flown to generate eligible scores for Club Class selection in our
Sports Class Nationals. *It is anticipated that most Standard, 15
Meter, and 18 Meter gliders will be accommodated.

* * * * * * * * We are currently rewriting our Selection Policy to
reflect these changes and will publish the text in draft form as soon
as possible. A draft Eligible Glider List will be also be produced
incorporating these changes. If approved, our selection next fall for
the year two pilot for the 2012 WGC will be made on this basis.

* * * * * * * * These proposed changes do not affect selection of the
year one pilot - i.e. selected two years in advance of the 2012 Sports
Class WGC in Argentina, provided as currently required that the pilot
participates in the 2011 pre-World contest there.

* * * * * * * * Given that these changes are being proposed, we wanted
to disseminate the news *as early as possible so that interested
pilots could plan their 2011 competition schedules accordingly

For the Committee
DJ


1. I would encourage the committee to delay implementing the changes
until 2012 so those that have "played by the rules" are not impacted
two thirds of the way through a three year cycle.

2. If these are truly "proposed" and not already decided will there be
a comment period? Flying a true Club Class glider is very different
from flying a newer glider. I am talking about 38 to 1 Std, Cirrus,
LS-1, ASW 15, Std Jantar, etc. Also, the intent of the Club Class was
to provide an avenue for those that do not have the funds or desire to
spend $80,000 to $300,000 on a glider to be able to complete and
represent their country.

The last two sports class nationals have been won by ASG-29's, do we
all have to spend $150,000 to play the game? The club class was to be
the "common man's" class, the last place that you could not buy your
way on to the team with the latest glider. 2010 was ruled by span and
wing loading (ASG-29, Ventus 2cx, ASW-27's). Day five showed the
difference when the lowest handicapped finisher was a Discus flown
beautifully and persistently by Sarah Kelly, everything with a higher
handicap could not penetrate the winds to cross the desert.

3. When will we see the corrected scores from 2009 and 2010 with the
scoring errors fixed? While those years standings are "official"
those that flew the contest should been informed of how they should
have done and if those scores will count toward team selection. A
fundamental error in the scoring program is a something that almost no
one is going to catch in the midst of a contest.

Tim







  #5  
Old September 18th 10, 05:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

On Sep 18, 4:45*am, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
* * * * * * * * The US Team Committee, in cooperation with the Rules
Committee and based on responses received through the on-line
competition survey conducted last year, has decided to recommend to
the SSA Board of Directors at its winter meeting that they approve
amendment to the Selection Policy for US Club Class Teams selected for
WGC participation starting in 2011.

* * * * * * * * 1) We will no longer restrict eligibility to pilots
who have not participated in a previous WGC event, i.e. all
participants in Sports Class Nationals flying eligible gliders will be
eligible

* * * * * * * * 2) We will broaden the list of gliders which may be
flown to generate eligible scores for Club Class selection in our
Sports Class Nationals. *It is anticipated that most Standard, 15
Meter, and 18 Meter gliders will be accommodated.

* * * * * * * * We are currently rewriting our Selection Policy to
reflect these changes and will publish the text in draft form as soon
as possible. A draft Eligible Glider List will be also be produced
incorporating these changes. If approved, our selection next fall for
the year two pilot for the 2012 WGC will be made on this basis.

* * * * * * * * These proposed changes do not affect selection of the
year one pilot - i.e. selected two years in advance of the 2012 Sports
Class WGC in Argentina, provided as currently required that the pilot
participates in the 2011 pre-World contest there.

* * * * * * * * Given that these changes are being proposed, we wanted
to disseminate the news *as early as possible so that interested
pilots could plan their 2011 competition schedules accordingly

For the Committee
DJ


1. I would encourage the committee to delay implementing the changes
until 2012 so those that have "played by the rules" are not impacted
two thirds of the way through a three year cycle.

2. If these are truly "proposed" and not already decided will there
be
a comment period? Flying a true Club Class glider is very different
from flying a newer glider. I am talking about 38 to 1 Std, Cirrus,
LS-1, ASW 15, Std Jantar, etc. Also, the intent of the Club Class
was
to provide an avenue for those that do not have the funds or desire
to
spend $80,000 to $300,000 on a glider to be able to complete and
represent their country.

The last two sports class nationals have been won by ASG-29's, do we
all have to spend $150,000 to play the game? The club class was to
be
the "common man's" class, the last place that you could not buy your
way on to the team with the latest glider. 2010 was ruled by span
and
wing loading (ASG-29, Ventus 2cx, ASW-27's). Day six showed the
difference when the lowest handicapped finisher was a Discus flown
beautifully and persistently by Sarah Kelly, everything with a higher
handicap could not penetrate the winds to cross the desert.

3. When will we see the corrected scores from 2009 and 2010 with the
scoring errors fixed? While those years standings are "official"
those that flew the contest should been informed of how they should
have done and if those scores will count toward team selection. A
fundamental error in the scoring program is a something that almost
no
one is going to catch in the midst of a contest.

Tim
  #6  
Old September 18th 10, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes


So it seems those who resisted the establishment of a bona fide Club
Class here in the U.S. have now *******ized it.

How utterly inane and comically predictable!

Ray Cornay


The pilot ranking list shows Ray Cornay flew an LS4 in Region 5 South
in 2008, but has not flown any sports class nationals. (I don't have
"Mike's" last name.) Ray has snarky things to say about people
"resisting the establishment of a bona fide club class", but when we
ran a club class contest in region 5 south 2009, he didn't show up.

And that's the basic problem. Everyone loves the idea of 50 new pilots
duking it out in club class gliders to get on the world team in the
abstract. Alas, it didn't happen in reality. Exactly one eligible
pilot/glider showed up two years in a row at sports nationals. People
with access to better gliders don't borrow a standard cirrus for their
two week gliding vacations just because some rule said so. And people
like Ray, for whom this whole thing was designed, do not show up.

Before spouting off we should all go look at the sports class results
at
http://www.ssa.org/members/contestre...lass+Nationals

and at the US team ranking list at
http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

(I gather the updated versions including this year's results will be
up soon.)

These are the sad facts that the US team committee has to deal
with.Should we really send pilots to the worlds based on these
results? Look hard and think what you would do. The SSA built it, they
don't come. At some point you face reality.

The claim that anyone at the US team or rules committee "resisted"
club class is also not founded. Two club class contests have been
held. Anyone who wants to organize one is welcome to do it. We'll
chalk Ray up as a volunteer to CD the next one.

No, the RC did not destroy the single most successful contest class in
the US (sports class) by passing a rule saying that 2/3 (yes, 2/3) of
the gliders who actually show up can't fly, all based on an unproven
theory. The SSA came close, by saying that 2/3 of those who show up
can't earn team points. We all should learn from this good but
unsuccessful idea and the world class debacle: you need to grow and
show popularity of a contest class before you commit to it. If you
want club class to succeed, put on a club class regional or super
regional, and show up!

Disclaimer: I had no part in the US team decision, nor do I speak for
the rules committee -- my opinions only.

John Cochrane
  #7  
Old September 18th 10, 06:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

On Sep 18, 10:38*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
So it seems those who resisted the establishment of a bona fide Club
Class here in the U.S. have now *******ized it.


How utterly inane and comically predictable!


Ray Cornay


The pilot ranking list shows Ray Cornay flew an LS4 in Region 5 South
in 2008, but has not flown any sports class nationals. (I don't have
"Mike's" last name.) Ray has snarky things to say about people
"resisting the establishment of a bona fide club class", but when we
ran a club class contest in region 5 south 2009, he didn't show up.

And that's the basic problem. Everyone loves the idea of 50 new pilots
duking it out in club class gliders to get on the world team in the
abstract. Alas, it didn't happen in reality. Exactly one *eligible
pilot/glider showed up two years in a row at sports nationals. People
with access to better gliders don't borrow a standard cirrus for their
two week gliding vacations just because some rule said so. And people
like Ray, for whom this whole thing was designed, do not show up.

Before spouting off *we should all go look at the sports class results
athttp://www.ssa.org/members/contestreports/ContestResultsFullDetail.as....

and at the US team ranking list athttp://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

(I gather the updated versions including this year's results will be
up soon.)

These are the sad facts that the US team committee has to deal
with.Should we really send pilots to the worlds based on these
results? Look hard and think what you would do. The SSA built it, they
don't come. At some point you face reality.

The claim that anyone at the US team or rules committee "resisted"
club class is also not founded. *Two club class contests have been
held. Anyone who wants to organize one is welcome to do it. We'll
chalk Ray up as a volunteer to CD the next one.

No, the RC did not destroy the single most successful contest class in
the US (sports class) by passing a rule saying that 2/3 (yes, 2/3) of
the gliders who actually show up can't fly, all based on an unproven
theory. *The SSA came close, by saying that 2/3 of those who show up
can't earn team points. We all should learn from this good but
unsuccessful idea and the world class debacle: you need to grow and
show popularity of a contest class before you commit to it. If you
want club class to succeed, put on a club class regional or super
regional, and show up!

Disclaimer: I had no part in the US team decision, nor do I speak for
the rules committee -- my opinions only.

John Cochrane


My name is Mike Carris and I have just purchased, with a partner, an
old forgotten PIK 20B that will take at least 500 total hours to get
flying again. I did this for one reason, to fly in the Club Class,
which is an FAI event, except in the USA. Now, there will be no club
class, just another opportunity, it seems, for a very few people
that can afford it, to get another chance to be on a world team. Why
not allow the Club Class to flourish as it was intened. Soaring in the
USA takes a step backwards with this decision.

Do something for the sport, you know the one that does not require
mega bucks to compete in.

Mike Carris "0"
  #8  
Old September 18th 10, 06:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes


My name is Mike Carris and I have just purchased, with a partner, an
old forgotten PIK 20B that will take at least 500 total hours to get
flying again. I did this for one reason, to fly in the Club Class,
which is an FAI event, except in the USA. Now, there will be no club
class, just another opportunity, it seems, *for a very few *people
that can afford it, to get another chance to be on a world team. *Why
not allow the Club Class to flourish as it was intened. Soaring in the
USA takes a step backwards with this decision.

Do something for the sport, you know the one that does not require
mega bucks to compete in.

Mike Carris "0"


Megabucks are not required to compete in sports class. Dave Stephenson
had a habit of crushing us with KA6 and Fokas; Tim McAllister has won
in a Libelle. Sports class is handicapped. The handicaps not only
work, they favor older gliders. The tasking guidelines also favor the
older gliders. Tasks are supposed to be set for a standard cirrus, and
if that's too short for a nimbus 4, too bad. Ray Gimmey didn't buy his
way from nowhere to sports class dominance with an ASG29, he happens
to be a pretty good pilot too! Read the proposal -- this said nothing
about club class in the US, it said only something about how the US
team will select pilots for the world team. There is and will be a
club class anytime someone wants to organize and go to a club class
event. Which I hope you will do; vibrant club class racing in the US
would be great to see.

John Cochrane
  #9  
Old September 18th 10, 06:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 261
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

On Sep 18, 9:22*am, Tim Taylor wrote:

*A fundamental error in the scoring program is a something that almost
no one is going to catch in the midst of a contest.

Tim


What error in the scoring program?
  #10  
Old September 18th 10, 06:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team SelectionPolicy Changes

On Sep 18, 11:33*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
My name is Mike Carris and I have just purchased, with a partner, an
old forgotten PIK 20B that will take at least 500 total hours to get
flying again. I did this for one reason, to fly in the Club Class,
which is an FAI event, except in the USA. Now, there will be no club
class, just another opportunity, it seems, *for a very few *people
that can afford it, to get another chance to be on a world team. *Why
not allow the Club Class to flourish as it was intened. Soaring in the
USA takes a step backwards with this decision.


Do something for the sport, you know the one that does not require
mega bucks to compete in.


Mike Carris "0"


Megabucks are not required to compete in sports class. Dave Stephenson
had a habit of crushing us with KA6 and Fokas; Tim McAllister has won
in a Libelle. Sports class is handicapped. The handicaps not only
work, they favor older gliders. *The tasking guidelines also favor the
older gliders. Tasks are supposed to be set for a standard cirrus, and
if that's too short for a nimbus 4, too bad. Ray Gimmey didn't buy his
way from nowhere to sports class dominance with an ASG29, he happens
to be a pretty good pilot too! *Read the proposal -- this said nothing
about club class in the US, it said only something about how the US
team will select pilots for the world team. There is and will be a
club class anytime someone wants to organize and go to a club class
event. Which I hope you will do; vibrant club class racing in the US
would be great to see.

John Cochrane


John,

I do not care about the Sports Class as a substitute for the FAI Club
Class in the USA, and with kind regards, although I know you mean
well, I do not find your argument very convincing.

There are excellent pilots that win in their classes. Let them remain
there doing their best, and if they want to fly Club Class, let them
buy a Club Class ship.

Thats it.

Mike

 




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