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#231
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IFR with a VFR GPS
Ron Garret wrote:
One of the (many) risks of UAHGPSFIFRENIUSCAS (you figure it out) is that a pilot might become complacent about using his primary navaids, particularly off-airways since the constant VOR twiddling required for off-airway navigation is such a pain in the ass and the use of the GPS is so effortless and (almost invariably) reliable. Exactly my point that got me labeled an idiot by McNicoll. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#232
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IFR with a VFR GPS
In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... Oh, Jose, you're giving up too easily! One of the (many) risks of UAHGPSFIFRENIUSCAS (you figure it out) is that a pilot might become complacent about using his primary navaids, particularly off-airways since the constant VOR twiddling required for off-airway navigation is such a pain in the ass and the use of the GPS is so effortless and (almost invariably) reliable. But off-airways flight doesn't require any VOR twiddling. It does if you're out of radar coverage. So the essential elements of the risk a 1. No radar coverage (or a controller not paying attention, which has also been known to happen) 2. Pilot decides to rely on GPS alone for guidance (complacency) and 3. GPS fails silently. Granted, it's not a large risk. But it is possible, and it is possible ONLY in the presence of a VFR-only GPS. You say there are many risks in UAHGPSFIFRENIUSCAS. Could you please identify some of them? I just identified one. I identified another in another branch of this this thread. BTW, just because the risks are numerous does not mean that they are significant. (But just because they are not significant does not mean that they do not exist.) Yes, complacency is a form of incompetence. But that does make it any less of a risk. Pilot complacency, in all its many manifestations, is a widely recognized risk. Furthermore (and this is the important part) this particular form of complacency CANNOT MANIFEST ITSELF EXCEPT WHEN A HANDHELD GPS IS IN USE. That makes it reasonable to assign at least part of the causality to the use of the GPS. Why can't that particular form of complacency manifest itself when on a long-range vector? Because you can't decide to stop using your VORs and use your GPS instead if you do not have a GPS. Isn't that obvious? You are using up your quota of stupid questions. rg |
#233
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IFR with a VFR GPS
In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... If an aircraft enters an unusual attitude following an AI failure, most pilots would say that that accident was caused (at least in part) by the AI failure despite the fact that the AI didn't (directly) cause the plane to enter an unusual attitude. I think you're wrong about that. I think most pilots would say that erroneous information provided by a failed AI would be a direct cause of an unusual attitude. I don't really want to quibble over terminology. The fact of the matter is that a failed AI is neither necessary nor sufficient to produce an unusual attitude. (To produce an unusual attitude you must have either erroneous control input, extreme turbulence, or structural failure.) An AI failure is nonetheless considered a risk. Likewise, a failed GPS is neither necessary nor sufficient to produce CFIT. It is nonetheless a risk. The two situations are exactly analogous. They differ only in the degree of risk. Are you a pilot? PPIASEL with just over 500 hours. I fly an SR22. I have also in the past flown IFR in a 182RG/A both with and without a handheld GPS (yoke mounted) and felt a lot safer on the whole when I had it than when I didn't. But OK, have it your way: the pilot drops the GPS. Being a competent pilot he does not attempt to retrieve it. It bounces around in the turbulence and, unbeknownst to the pilot, it gets wedged under one of the rudder pedals. The airplane spins and crashes turning base to final because the now limited travel on the rudder pedal makes it impossible to adequately compensate for adverse yaw (and the pilot doesn't realize it until it's too late). So what you're saying is that loose objects in the cockpit can be hazardous. That may very well be, but that's not the subject of this discussion. It is if the loose object in question was a handheld GPS being used for enroute IFR navigation yada yada yada. Most accidents, including this hypothetical one, are the result of long causal chains of events, all of which are collectively necessary for the accident to occur. It is true that the pilot in my first scenario was incompetent, but in a way that would not have manifested itself but for the need to retrieve the GPS from the floor of the plane. (And this, by the way, is why it matters that it's a GPS that was dropped and not, say, a granola bar. The perceived urgency of retrieving a granola bar would probably be less than that of retrieving the GPS.) Why? The pilot can always ask ATC for navigational assistance, but they can't provide an inflight snack. That's why I hedged with "probably." Different pilots assess situations differently. I can actually envision situations where retrieving a granola bar might have a pretty high priority, but that, as you say, is not the topic under discussion. It's a moot point since I have now provided a scenario involving a competent pilot, but do you have a principled basis for assigning all of the causality to one of many factors in the causal chain, or did you simply choose to make this assignment arbitrarily in order to support your untenable position? My untenable position? It is my position that use of a handheld GPS for IFR enroute navigation in US controlled airspace is without hazard. Note that nobody has identified any hazard from such usage. You can keep insisting that, but the fact of the matter is that I have now described two (or three depending on how you count) potential hazards from such use. So yes, your position that such hazards do not exist is untenable. You can argue that the risks are insignificant (and I would agree, and so, I think, would everyone else) but you can no longer argue that they do not exist without behaving like -- dare I say it? -- an idiot. rg |
#234
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IFR with a VFR GPS
"Ron Garret" wrote in message ... It does if you're out of radar coverage. You're not going to be out of radar coverage. Haven't you been paying attention? Routes off-airways or beyond normal navaid usable distances require ATC to provide radar monitoring and course guidance if necessary. I just identified one. I identified another in another branch of this this thread. You identified what you erroneously believed to be risks. You didn't identify any actual risks. BTW, just because the risks are numerous does not mean that they are significant. (But just because they are not significant does not mean that they do not exist.) Numerous risks? You cited only two, and they weren't actually risks. Because you can't decide to stop using your VORs and use your GPS instead if you do not have a GPS. Isn't that obvious? But I can complacently decide to stop using my VORs if I'm on a long-range vector. Isn't that similarity obvious? You are using up your quota of stupid questions. Do you realize you haven't answered any of my questions correctly? |
#235
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IFR with a VFR GPS
In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... It does if you're out of radar coverage. You're not going to be out of radar coverage. Haven't you been paying attention? Routes off-airways or beyond normal navaid usable distances require ATC to provide radar monitoring and course guidance if necessary. shrug So make the scenario on-airway. Or have the radar fail. Or have the controller not paying attention. Or have the pilot file /G. There are myriad possibilities. I just identified one. I identified another in another branch of this this thread. You identified what you erroneously believed to be risks. You didn't identify any actual risks. Yes I did, though as I suspected it hasn't done any good. You seem to have a different definition of "risk" than most people. If handheld GPS is not a risk then neither is AI failure. The two differ only in their likelihoods; structurally the two situations are identical. Both GPS and the AI provide information that can be wrong. Both have backups that are supposed to kick in if the information is in fact wrong. In both cases the backups can fail, or the pilot can fail to use them properly. And in both cases if the pilot does realize that the information is wrong and act accordingly the results can be catastrophic. Does that constitute a risk? I think most people would say yes. (We could take a poll.) (There is actually one structural difference, and that is that the GPS might not be rigidly attached to the airframe, whereas the AI necessarily is. But that's just an additional source of risk for the GPS in most cases.) BTW, just because the risks are numerous does not mean that they are significant. (But just because they are not significant does not mean that they do not exist.) Numerous risks? You cited only two, and they weren't actually risks. I stopped at two because extrapolating from those two examples to many others is an elementary exercise in applying some imagination (which you seem to lack). Also because, as I suspected, it would be futile. Additional examples will not convince you. You will simply dismiss them as not being risks. Because you can't decide to stop using your VORs and use your GPS instead if you do not have a GPS. Isn't that obvious? But I can complacently decide to stop using my VORs if I'm on a long-range vector. Isn't that similarity obvious? Of course. But that is, as you yourself are so fond of pointing out, not the topic under discussion. That there are many different possible root causes of a catastrophic chain of events does not reduce the risk associated with any one of those root causes. The risk associated with AI failure is not reduced just because there are also other ways one might get disoriented. Likewise for GPS. You are using up your quota of stupid questions. Do you realize you haven't answered any of my questions correctly? No. Do you realize that that was another stupid question? rg |
#236
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IFR with a VFR GPS
"Jose" wrote in message . .. Why do you keep asking this question? Surely it is not to acquire information, or to dispense any. Rather, you seem to be pressing the point that "use" and "rely on" are not the same. When someone says that use of a handheld GPS for IFR enroute navigation in US controlled airspace is either hazardous or illegal I ask them to identify the hazard or the law that is being violated. I do that so that I may know what they think the hazard to be or what law they believe is being violated. If they respond I explain the error in their thinking and sometimes information is dispersed that way. |
#237
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IFR with a VFR GPS
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
When someone says that use of a handheld GPS for IFR enroute navigation in US controlled airspace is either hazardous or illegal I ask them to identify the hazard or the law that is being violated. I do that so that I may know what they think the hazard to be or what law they believe is being violated. *If they respond I explain the error in their thinking and sometimes information is dispersed that way.* So, then, If they respond to your questioning of their post, you automatically tell them they are in error, regardless of what they have to say. That's good stuff, McNicoll, and tells us a lot about your character, at least here on the newsgroups. Happy Flying! Scott Skylane |
#238
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IFR with a VFR GPS
"Scott Skylane" wrote in message ... So, then, If they respond to your questioning of their post, you automatically tell them they are in error, regardless of what they have to say. That's good stuff, McNicoll, and tells us a lot about your character, at least here on the newsgroups. What does it tell you about my character? |
#239
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IFR with a VFR GPS
"Ron Garret" wrote in message ... I don't really want to quibble over terminology. The fact of the matter is that a failed AI is neither necessary nor sufficient to produce an unusual attitude. (To produce an unusual attitude you must have either erroneous control input, extreme turbulence, or structural failure.) An AI failure is nonetheless considered a risk. Likewise, a failed GPS is neither necessary nor sufficient to produce CFIT. It is nonetheless a risk. The two situations are exactly analogous. They differ only in the degree of risk. Well, Ron, the fact of the matter is a failed AI is quite sufficient to produce an unusual attitude. PPIASEL with just over 500 hours. I fly an SR22. I have also in the past flown IFR in a 182RG/A both with and without a handheld GPS (yoke mounted) and felt a lot safer on the whole when I had it than when I didn't. Was any of it logged in the US? Was any of it logged outside of MSFS? It is if the loose object in question was a handheld GPS being used for enroute IFR navigation yada yada yada. So you're saying the hazard presented by use of a handheld GPS for enroute IFR navigation in US controlled airspace is loss of rudder control. Is that correct? You can keep insisting that, but the fact of the matter is that I have now described two (or three depending on how you count) potential hazards from such use. So yes, your position that such hazards do not exist is untenable. You can argue that the risks are insignificant (and I would agree, and so, I think, would everyone else) but you can no longer argue that they do not exist without behaving like -- dare I say it? -- an idiot. Right. You said use of a handheld GPS for IFR enroute navigation in US controlled airspace is hazardous because it could compel the pilot to turn off all his other avionics or jam the rudder pedals. And you think me an idiot because I try to explain why that isn't so. You're flying the airways of life with a couple of props feathered. |
#240
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IFR with a VFR GPS
"Ron Garret" wrote in message ... shrug So make the scenario on-airway. On-airways flight doesn't require any VOR twiddling either. Or have the radar fail. Then the controller will issue a route on-airways or within normal navaid usable distances. Or have the controller not paying attention. If you're not prepared to trust the controller to pay attention you're not prepared to operate IFR in controlled airspace. Or have the pilot file /G. Radar monitoring is still required. Off-airways IFR flight was not made possible by the advent of GPS, it was made possible by ATC radar. There are myriad possibilities. It's clear there are many things which you believe are possibilities but actually are not. Yes I did, though as I suspected it hasn't done any good. You seem to have a different definition of "risk" than most people. Ya think? State your definition so we can compare it to the dictionary definition. If handheld GPS is not a risk then neither is AI failure. The two differ only in their likelihoods; structurally the two situations are identical. Both GPS and the AI provide information that can be wrong. Both have backups that are supposed to kick in if the information is in fact wrong. In both cases the backups can fail, or the pilot can fail to use them properly. I don't see a lot of similarity. The most difficult aspect of an AI failure can be determining that it is the AI that has failed. If you're in solid cloud and the AI and TC are providing conflicting information, how do you determine which is incorrect? In a study done some years ago in a simulator that situation resulted in a loss of control by most pilots in less than a minute. If your GPS fails and you drift off course the controller alerts you to the situation, you don't have to figure out anything on your own. And in both cases if the pilot does realize that the information is wrong and act accordingly the results can be catastrophic. Does that constitute a risk? I think most people would say yes. (We could take a poll.) We could, but if facts and logic wont sway you it seems unlikely that poll results will. I stopped at two because extrapolating from those two examples to many others is an elementary exercise in applying some imagination (which you seem to lack). Also because, as I suspected, it would be futile. Additional examples will not convince you. You will simply dismiss them as not being risks. Of course. I'd look pretty foolish if I didn't dismiss non-risks as not being risks. Do you realize you haven't answered any of my questions correctly? No. No surprise there. Do you realize that that was another stupid question? Not at all. It's purpose was to determine whether you were feigning stupidity or if it was genuine. Assuming you answered it honestly, we now know you're genuinely stupid. |
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