Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged

"Andy Hawkins" wrote

I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated
factors
in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so
bad.

I hate to speak ill of the dead, but wow! How far away from ready are you
to solo, if all it takes is a distraction to keep you from advancing the
throttle from idle, when you are not trying to land?

It should be so automatic, that distractions should not be an issue. When
things were not happening (like climbing) it should not be hard to notice
that your engine was making no noise, right?

I am truly sorry this young man died. It sucks that things piled up on him,
and non standard procedures took place. Part of training has to be
expecting the unexpected, but above all, fly the plane. That did not
happen.

I think that he was not ready to solo. More drilling on unusual situations
needed to take place, without a doubt. The big thing that needed to be
taught is fly the plane. Always. Without fail. No matter what.
--
Jim in NC

The instructors around here make sure that "unable" is in the students
vocabulary. Controllers will occasionally offer Class B transition to a solo
student. If the student doesn't have a Class B endorsement, which most don't
have, it is up to the student to say "unable".



"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
...

What I meant to say was that "judgement" training should start early.
Starting out, I added "student pilot" to my call sign. Once I stopped
doing
that, I can remember a time when I responded to an odd request with
"Unable,
student pilot."

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


I think that all instructors attempt to do that, with varying results; and
I
agree that "unable" needs to be part of every pilot's vocabulary. It
seems
to be the real-life version of a "pause button" and excessive use
indicates
a need for additional training; but it can help in avoiding dangerous
conditions.

Peter

I trained at a Class D under Class B and I never used (nor felt the
need to use) the "S" word during my lessons or solo flights.

I work in sports TV and I'm certain that gave me a big leg up on
dealing with comms. When I'm at work, I wear a headset, I listen to
multiple faceless voices while scanning multiple screens, all the
while having to remain focused on specific tasks yet keep the big
picture in mind. Sure sounds like flying to me.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
www.pbase.com/flyingphotog

"Andy Hawkins" wrote in message
...
Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff
happens"
and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time
an
accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to
find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will
die;
but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us
would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death.

While that's true, and adding more and more 'rules' isn't necessarily
going
to help, it can't be harmful to have a standardised method for
inexperienced
(not just student) pilots to identify themselves as such to ATC and other
pilots.

'Heathrow Tower, Tyro G-ANDY base' isn't much more to say, and can convey
this inexperience without too much extra effort.

Military fields already have a mechanism for doing this (the 'Tyro' above
is
the military term). Extending this to civilian air traffic seems as good a
way as any to me.

I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated
factors
in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so
bad.

Andy

Well, I did use some of that idle time to read the entire report.

The proposal at the end of the report seemed to make the Student/Tyro call
sign a recommended standard for all student solo flights, which would
suddenly end when the private pilot certificate was issued. IMHO, that is
an egregious idea for at least two reasons: 1) it is just one more example
of the worse of the "Nanny State" and 2) it suddenly ends exactly when the
new pilot is first exposed to the distraction and responsibility of
passengers.

However, the call sign recommendation was my only criticism of the report,
which was remarkably thorough and complete--expecially for a single aircraft
accident with only the pilot aboard and no injuries on the ground.

Interestingly, it appears that the student pilot did absolutely nothing with
the exceptions of pulling back on the yoke and of turning--and too far and
to an incorrect heading. Apparently, according to the rather thorough
reconstruction, he flew the approach with approximately 20 degrees of flaps,
carb heat on and 1700 rpm. Although the tachometer froze showing 900 rpm,
the additional findings and commentary suggested that the power was never
changed from the approach to impact--in other words, in addition to not
removing carb heat and to not retracting the flaps, the student never
throttled up...

All in all, an unusual chain of events. As you said, a lot of small
isolated factors.

Peter

Jay Beckman writes:

I work in sports TV and I'm certain that gave me a big leg up on
dealing with comms. When I'm at work, I wear a headset, I listen to
multiple faceless voices while scanning multiple screens, all the
while having to remain focused on specific tasks yet keep the big
picture in mind. Sure sounds like flying to me.

Listening to voices and conversing with them are two very different things.

Hi,

In article ,
Ken wrote:
How about squawking "1201" for student pilots?

That would only work in airspace where you'd normally squawk VFR. Certainly
around the airfield I'm learning at, we don't.

Andy

Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
The proposal at the end of the report seemed to make the Student/Tyro call
sign a recommended standard for all student solo flights, which would
suddenly end when the private pilot certificate was issued. IMHO, that is
an egregious idea for at least two reasons: 1) it is just one more example
of the worse of the "Nanny State" and 2) it suddenly ends exactly when the
new pilot is first exposed to the distraction and responsibility of
passengers.

The flying order for the club I'm flying at (at a military field) contains
the following:

To indicate their relative inexperience, solo students may use the prefix
'TYRO' on their first call on frequency. E.g. 'XYZ Ground G-ANDY
TYRO request taxi solo ABC departure.' Aircraft not using TYRO will be
assumed capable of accepting non standard instructions including turns below
500 ft to clear the departure lane after take off.

The key phrase there is 'to indicate their relative inexperience'. If the
report is recommending that this call sign prefix should stop the day
someone passes their checkride, then yes, that's perhaps not such a good
thing.

I would imagine it would be good to allow *any* pilot to use the prefix when
(for example) landing at a new airfield for the first time to indicate to
the controllers that they may perhaps not be completely au fait with
procedures at that field.

It's not gonna solve all problems like this, but surely anything that can
reduce them is good, no?

Andy

"Andy Hawkins" wrote in message
...
Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
The proposal at the end of the report seemed to make the Student/Tyro
call
sign a recommended standard for all student solo flights, which would
suddenly end when the private pilot certificate was issued. IMHO, that
is
an egregious idea for at least two reasons: 1) it is just one more
example
of the worse of the "Nanny State" and 2) it suddenly ends exactly when
the
new pilot is first exposed to the distraction and responsibility of
passengers.

The flying order for the club I'm flying at (at a military field) contains
the following:

To indicate their relative inexperience, solo students may use the prefix
'TYRO' on their first call on frequency. E.g. 'XYZ Ground G-ANDY
TYRO request taxi solo ABC departure.' Aircraft not using TYRO will be
assumed capable of accepting non standard instructions including turns
below
500 ft to clear the departure lane after take off.

The key phrase there is 'to indicate their relative inexperience'. If the
report is recommending that this call sign prefix should stop the day
someone passes their checkride, then yes, that's perhaps not such a good
thing.

I would imagine it would be good to allow *any* pilot to use the prefix
when
(for example) landing at a new airfield for the first time to indicate to
the controllers that they may perhaps not be completely au fait with
procedures at that field.

It's not gonna solve all problems like this, but surely anything that can
reduce them is good, no?

Andy

My presumption, from reading their recommendation, was that the call sign
prefix (or suffix) would end with passing the checkride.

In short, we agree.

Peter

Andy Hawkins writes:

That would only work in airspace where you'd normally squawk VFR. Certainly
around the airfield I'm learning at, we don't.

What do you squawk instead?

Hi,

In article ,
wrote:
Andy Hawkins writes:

That would only work in airspace where you'd normally squawk VFR. Certainly
around the airfield I'm learning at, we don't.

What do you squawk instead?

What the tower tells you to.

Andy