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Much Ado About Nothing



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 29th 20, 04:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 290
Default Much Ado About Nothing

At 02:37 29 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
RO
I think these days tailskids are as rare as hens teeth.
The last one I saw was when the guy who bought my 1958 Ka6CR

towed it home
in 2000.

A lot of the 1980's vintage tail skids were retrofitted with the
in-line skate wheels embedded in the skid. They helped, but still
wouldn't track as well as the larger pneumatic tires. My Discus-B
and I believe my first ASW-24 still had skids.

RO

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  #12  
Old March 29th 20, 01:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy B.
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Posts: 241
Default Much Ado About Nothing

My old ASW 17 had a tail skid - and to make it worse it had a metal cleat screwed to the bottom of the skid and and the old Schleicher off center CG hook. Needless to say, SOP was to start the roll with the stick full back & a prayer if on tarmac. Once in the air it was fine.

I suspect (but am not sure) that people who report a difference in aero tow handling between belly hooks and nose hooks are really perceiving the difference between forward and aft center of gravity locations on different gliders or the effect of all flying tails. Both of those impact aero tow handling more than location of the hook, in my experience.
ROY

  #13  
Old March 29th 20, 05:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WB
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Posts: 225
Default Much Ado About Nothing

301 Libelles sit high on their gear with the wings at a high angle. Takes relatively longer in the takeoff roll to get the tail up and the ailerons alive. Wing drops are an issue. My 301 is a little worse in that respect. It has Kestrel landing gear so sits about an inch higher than the norm. Towing from the nose hook helps noticeably with getting the tail up and helps prevent wing drop. Once in the air, the diff between flying the nose or belly hook is small.
  #14  
Old March 29th 20, 05:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Hartley Falbaum[_2_]
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Posts: 67
Default Much Ado About Nothing

On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 11:28:10 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
To lift a title from The Bard and, since there's not much else going on
these days, and to give homage to Roseanne Roseannadana...

What's all this nonsense I keep hearing about CG hooks?

My first glider had a nose hook and it was easy to control on launch and
tow.* All the rest had CG hooks (only) and I never noticed a difference
either on take off or tow.* The only advantage I ever noticed about
either was on ground launch where the nose hook was at a distinct
disadvantage.

So, for me at least, a CG hook would be a must for any non-self-launch
glider.* I think that those who make a big bugaboo about CG hooks are
doing a disservice to gliding.

Let the games begin...

--
Dan, 5J


Chris Rollings did actual research on kiting problems with CG and Nose hooks. Google Chris Rollings and read for yourselves.

Hartley Falbaum

  #15  
Old March 29th 20, 05:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,164
Default Much Ado About Nothing

Good historical write up, Mike, but the intent of my post was the
current fear of CG hooks.* Today pretty much every glider has a tail
wheel with a rubber tire and plenty of rudder authority.* It's the same
as the apparent fear in the US of ground launching.* I could start
another thread about that...

Thinking back to my first LS-6 (I owned two in partnerships), it had a
CG hook only and a funny little hard plastic tail wheel which had no
traction at all.* I would equate that to a skid on pavement. IIRC, it
also came with a steel plate tail skid so I guess the plastic wheel was
an improvement, but much.* My solution was not to install a nose hook,
but to replace the plastic wheel with a roller blade tire (all of $3
used).* Worked like a champ and I never ground looped the ship.* Neither
did my partner.

Oh, and we did a boat load of ground launches in that ship. Something
that would not have been too much fun with a nose hook.

On 3/28/2020 3:13 PM, Michael Opitz wrote:
At 15:28 28 March 2020, Dan Marotta wrote:
To lift a title from The Bard and, since there's not much else going

on
these days, and to give homage to Roseanne Roseannadana...

What's all this nonsense I keep hearing about CG hooks?

My first glider had a nose hook and it was easy to control on

launch and
tow.Â* All the rest had CG hooks (only) and I never noticed a

difference
either on take off or tow.Â* The only advantage I ever noticed about
either was on ground launch where the nose hook was at a distinct
disadvantage.

So, for me at least, a CG hook would be a must for any non-self-

launch
glider.Â* I think that those who make a big bugaboo about CG hooks

are
doing a disservice to gliding.

Let the games begin...

--
Dan, 5J


The issue came up back in the early 1980's when most all high
performance gliders only had C/G hooks for drag reduction
purposes. A lot of those gliders still had tail skids as well. Stack
a bunch of them on a paved runway for a competition and watch
out! With any kind of crosswind at all, the gliders didn't have
enough rudder authority at low speed to counter impending ground
loops with any kind of weathervaning at all. Add a wing drop due
to uneven tow plane prop vortices, and we had all sorts of ground
loops into other gliders, cars and people on the sidelines. Using
dive brakes to kill the lift on both wings on initial take-off roll helped

with the wing drop issues, but until tail wheels became the norm,
the tail skids would not track well on a hard surface. This lack of tail
tracking ability coupled with a C/G release location meant that once
a little weathervaning started, there was no way to stop it until you
had rudder authority, and a lot of times, that was too late. The nose
hook always pulls in front of the C/G to self damp or return the nose
towards the centerline, which is extremely helpful until one gets
rudder authority. There was way too much excitement on the
contest take-off grid until tail wheels and nose hooks came to be the
norm, and that's why there is the nose hook preference on newer
gliders.

RO


--
Dan, 5J
  #16  
Old March 29th 20, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,367
Default Much Ado About Nothing

On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:15:05 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
At 02:37 29 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
RO
I think these days tailskids are as rare as hens teeth.
The last one I saw was when the guy who bought my 1958 Ka6CR

towed it home
in 2000.

A lot of the 1980's vintage tail skids were retrofitted with the
in-line skate wheels embedded in the skid. They helped, but still
wouldn't track as well as the larger pneumatic tires. My Discus-B
and I believe my first ASW-24 still had skids.

RO


Your ASW-24 didd not have a skid. But they were still a handful even without a load of water, with a quartering tailwind at start of roll. An ASW-24 with CG hook is the only glider I have released on tow on the ground for control issues. I did aerotow my ASH26 a multiple times with the gear mounted CG hook, that was much nicer than the ASW-24 CG hook.
  #17  
Old March 29th 20, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,450
Default Much Ado About Nothing

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 3/29/2020 10:17 AM:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:15:05 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
At 02:37 29 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
RO
I think these days tailskids are as rare as hens teeth.
The last one I saw was when the guy who bought my 1958 Ka6CR

towed it home
in 2000.

A lot of the 1980's vintage tail skids were retrofitted with the
in-line skate wheels embedded in the skid. They helped, but still
wouldn't track as well as the larger pneumatic tires. My Discus-B
and I believe my first ASW-24 still had skids.

RO


Your ASW-24 didd not have a skid. But they were still a handful even without a load of water, with a quartering tailwind at start of roll. An ASW-24 with CG hook is the only glider I have released on tow on the ground for control issues. I did aerotow my ASH26 a multiple times with the gear mounted CG hook, that was much nicer than the ASW-24 CG hook.


Did your ASH26 have a steerable tail wheel? That makes a tremendous difference in
controlling where you want it to go. Even without that, the designer's deliberate
positioning of the main gear more forward than usual puts considerable weight on
the tail wheel, increasing it's authority, and making the glider much less likely
to swerve.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #18  
Old March 29th 20, 09:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default Much Ado About Nothing

At 17:17 29 March 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:15:05 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz

wrote:
At 02:37 29 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
RO
I think these days tailskids are as rare as hens teeth.
The last one I saw was when the guy who bought my 1958

Ka6CR=20
towed it home
in 2000.

A lot of the 1980's vintage tail skids were retrofitted with the
in-line skate wheels embedded in the skid. They helped, but still
wouldn't track as well as the larger pneumatic tires. My Discus-

B=20
and I believe my first ASW-24 still had skids.=20
=20
RO


Your ASW-24 didd not have a skid. But they were still a handful

even
witho=
ut a load of water, with a quartering tailwind at start of roll. An
ASW-2=
4 with CG hook is the only glider I have released on tow on the

ground for
=
control issues. I did aerotow my ASH26 a multiple times with the

gear
moun=
ted CG hook, that was much nicer than the ASW-24 CG hook.


Jon,

My first ASW-24 was serial #10. I checked some old pictures, and
it had a tail skid. I may have gotten a tail wheel on my second
one, But I can't remember right now.

RO


  #19  
Old March 29th 20, 09:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Youngblood
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Posts: 314
Default Much Ado About Nothing

On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 11:28:10 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
To lift a title from The Bard and, since there's not much else going on
these days, and to give homage to Roseanne Roseannadana...

What's all this nonsense I keep hearing about CG hooks?

My first glider had a nose hook and it was easy to control on launch and
tow.* All the rest had CG hooks (only) and I never noticed a difference
either on take off or tow.* The only advantage I ever noticed about
either was on ground launch where the nose hook was at a distinct
disadvantage.

So, for me at least, a CG hook would be a must for any non-self-launch
glider.* I think that those who make a big bugaboo about CG hooks are
doing a disservice to gliding.

Let the games begin...

--
Dan, 5J


Well, I like the CG hook, I use it all the time even on self launches. I think I should write a book called, Nose Hooks For Idiots. Bob
  #20  
Old March 29th 20, 11:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,103
Default Much Ado About Nothing

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 4:15:04 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
At 17:17 29 March 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:15:05 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz

wrote:
At 02:37 29 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
RO
I think these days tailskids are as rare as hens teeth.
The last one I saw was when the guy who bought my 1958

Ka6CR=20
towed it home
in 2000.

A lot of the 1980's vintage tail skids were retrofitted with the
in-line skate wheels embedded in the skid. They helped, but still
wouldn't track as well as the larger pneumatic tires. My Discus-

B=20
and I believe my first ASW-24 still had skids.=20
=20
RO


Your ASW-24 didd not have a skid. But they were still a handful

even
witho=
ut a load of water, with a quartering tailwind at start of roll. An
ASW-2=
4 with CG hook is the only glider I have released on tow on the

ground for
=
control issues. I did aerotow my ASH26 a multiple times with the

gear
moun=
ted CG hook, that was much nicer than the ASW-24 CG hook.


Jon,

My first ASW-24 was serial #10. I checked some old pictures, and
it had a tail skid. I may have gotten a tail wheel on my second
one, But I can't remember right now.

RO


I'll bet your skid was probably a plug in into the tail wheel mount for "low drag".
My '27 came back from a nationals with a skid I asked the guy I loaned it to "what were you thinking?" He said "low drag".
Sigh
UH
 




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