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Much Ado About Nothing



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 28th 20, 03:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,163
Default Much Ado About Nothing

To lift a title from The Bard and, since there's not much else going on
these days, and to give homage to Roseanne Roseannadana...

What's all this nonsense I keep hearing about CG hooks?

My first glider had a nose hook and it was easy to control on launch and
tow.* All the rest had CG hooks (only) and I never noticed a difference
either on take off or tow.* The only advantage I ever noticed about
either was on ground launch where the nose hook was at a distinct
disadvantage.

So, for me at least, a CG hook would be a must for any non-self-launch
glider.* I think that those who make a big bugaboo about CG hooks are
doing a disservice to gliding.

Let the games begin...

--
Dan, 5J
Ads
  #2  
Old March 28th 20, 04:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 214
Default Much Ado About Nothing

"I never noticed a difference either on take off or tow."

I don't agree, CG is more pleasing to fly on tow. Since there is little torque on the glider from the cable, a CG hook provides more options for holding position.

The CG hook is also quite stable (as in stick won't help) in a nose high, cable low, elevator stalled configuration. Which is fine unless you happen to be tied a tow plane also with a stalled elevator at the time. This is extremely unlikely to happen if the glider pilot understands the possibility and proactively doesn't go there. Sadly, we sometimes don't include this possibility in training and so it does happen.

Game on
  #4  
Old March 28th 20, 04:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 890
Default Much Ado About Nothing

On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 12:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
"I never noticed a difference either on take off or tow."

I don't agree, CG is more pleasing to fly on tow. Since there is little torque on the glider from the cable, a CG hook provides more options for holding position.

The CG hook is also quite stable (as in stick won't help) in a nose high, cable low, elevator stalled configuration. Which is fine unless you happen to be tied a tow plane also with a stalled elevator at the time. This is extremely unlikely to happen if the glider pilot understands the possibility and proactively doesn't go there. Sadly, we sometimes don't include this possibility in training and so it does happen.

Game on


It's night time in Australia, guys :-).

Nose hook for aero tow is a JAR thing now, and unlikely to change. It's my view that a (well designed and located) nose hook is safest for aero tow.

Some CG only gliders are pussycats on tow, have perfect manners.

Some nose hook equipped gliders have dangerous pitching tendencies.

Inattentive glider pilots have killed tow pilots with both types.

200' tow rope (or longer) and Tost release on both ends is good.

Switched on pilots with good training and procedures is best.

T8
  #5  
Old March 28th 20, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,448
Default Much Ado About Nothing

wrote on 3/28/2020 9:16 AM:
"I never noticed a difference either on take off or tow."

I don't agree, CG is more pleasing to fly on tow. Since there is little torque on the glider from the cable, a CG hook provides more options for holding position.

The CG hook is also quite stable (as in stick won't help) in a nose high, cable low, elevator stalled configuration. Which is fine unless you happen to be tied a tow plane also with a stalled elevator at the time. This is extremely unlikely to happen if the glider pilot understands the possibility and proactively doesn't go there. Sadly, we sometimes don't include this possibility in training and so it does happen.

Game on


I've owned three gliders with CG hooks, and three with nose hooks. The nose hooks
went straighter on the take off roll, ESPECIALLY during an unassisted launch. All
were easier to manage in the air, requiring less attention, particularly in
turbulent conditions. The only position I cared about holding was behind the towplane.

My ASW20C came with a CG hook; years later, I had a "forward" hook added (about 2'
from the nose). The difference was significant, and I was glad I spent the money.
Most of my launches were unassisted, and I was pleased I could handle crosswinds
better.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #6  
Old March 28th 20, 08:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,327
Default Much Ado About Nothing

Hmmm.....many years, "a bit of sailplane hours"......a lot of "Mercian iron" (SGS) with nose hooks, about the same hours with CG hooks (mostly AS**** ships)..... all aero tow...frankly, in lots of conditions and suitable training, can't say I have an issue or preference.
Yes, low time training, nose hook can help since it tends to track to towplane tail a little easier.
Yes, most of my aerotow hours are low tow (please don't start that argument yet again here....I fly and trained on both...).
:-(

I have NO winch experience (would LOVE to do Karl's course in PA....if nothing more than to fly with Karl...;-)).

  #7  
Old March 28th 20, 09:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 290
Default Much Ado About Nothing

At 15:28 28 March 2020, Dan Marotta wrote:
To lift a title from The Bard and, since there's not much else going

on
these days, and to give homage to Roseanne Roseannadana...

What's all this nonsense I keep hearing about CG hooks?

My first glider had a nose hook and it was easy to control on

launch and
tow.* All the rest had CG hooks (only) and I never noticed a

difference
either on take off or tow.* The only advantage I ever noticed about
either was on ground launch where the nose hook was at a distinct
disadvantage.

So, for me at least, a CG hook would be a must for any non-self-

launch
glider.* I think that those who make a big bugaboo about CG hooks

are
doing a disservice to gliding.

Let the games begin...

--
Dan, 5J


The issue came up back in the early 1980's when most all high
performance gliders only had C/G hooks for drag reduction
purposes. A lot of those gliders still had tail skids as well. Stack
a bunch of them on a paved runway for a competition and watch
out! With any kind of crosswind at all, the gliders didn't have
enough rudder authority at low speed to counter impending ground
loops with any kind of weathervaning at all. Add a wing drop due
to uneven tow plane prop vortices, and we had all sorts of ground
loops into other gliders, cars and people on the sidelines. Using
dive brakes to kill the lift on both wings on initial take-off roll helped

with the wing drop issues, but until tail wheels became the norm,
the tail skids would not track well on a hard surface. This lack of tail
tracking ability coupled with a C/G release location meant that once
a little weathervaning started, there was no way to stop it until you
had rudder authority, and a lot of times, that was too late. The nose
hook always pulls in front of the C/G to self damp or return the nose
towards the centerline, which is extremely helpful until one gets
rudder authority. There was way too much excitement on the
contest take-off grid until tail wheels and nose hooks came to be the
norm, and that's why there is the nose hook preference on newer
gliders.

RO

  #8  
Old March 29th 20, 12:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Roy B.
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Posts: 238
Default Much Ado About Nothing

I think Mike/RO has it right. The difference between CG and nose hooks is mostly felt on the ground at the beginning of the roll. If a wing goes down and the tail is not planted down hard, with a CG hook watch out. In the air there is not much difference. I've flown lots of gliders with both style hooks (and used both on aerotow), and never noticed much difference once I got in the air.
ROY
  #9  
Old March 29th 20, 03:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 290
Default Much Ado About Nothing

At 00:11 29 March 2020, Roy B. wrote:
I think Mike/RO has it right. The difference between CG and nose

hooks is
m=
ostly felt on the ground at the beginning of the roll. If a wing goes

down
=
and the tail is not planted down hard, with a CG hook watch out. In

the
air=
there is not much difference. I've flown lots of gliders with both style
h=
ooks (and used both on aerotow), and never noticed much difference

once I
g=
ot in the air.
ROY=20


And to the folks who say that they haven't noticed a difference, I
will bet they haven't tried taking off with full water ballast and a 10-
15 Kt crosswind at a high density altitude SW USA desert location
in a C/G hook / tail skid equipped glider... Been there, done that,
got the T-shirt, and don't care to reinvent the wheel. I, for one
have learned from history. Some of the younger folks haven't
been around long enough to have seen it for themselves.

RO

  #10  
Old March 29th 20, 03:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
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Posts: 234
Default Much Ado About Nothing

RO
I think these days tailskids are as rare as hens teeth.
The last one I saw was when the guy who bought my 1958 Ka6CR towed it home in 2000.
 




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