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#51
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soaring into the future
At 13:06 27 December 2007, Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:01=A0am, Steve Davis wrote: At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote: Soaring in America needs high altitude high capacity winch launch locations, I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported a Skylaunch kit sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine and transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable winch with a reasonable outlay. Dan It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed. That way you would have a thoroughly proven system, be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical assemblies across the Atlantic at all. John Galloway |
#52
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soaring into the future
"John Galloway" wrote in message ... At 13:06 27 December 2007, Dan G wrote: On Dec 27, 7:01=A0am, Steve Davis wrote: At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote: Soaring in America needs high altitude high capacity winch launch locations, I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported a Skylaunch kit sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine and transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable winch with a reasonable outlay. Dan It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed. That way you would have a thoroughly proven system, be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical assemblies across the Atlantic at all. John Galloway Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the Skylaunch at a similar price. Hang tight. Bill Daniels |
#53
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soaring into the future
Bill Daniels wrote:
Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the Skylaunch at a similar price. Hang tight. What's the winch community's opinion on a "hybrid" winch, which uses an electric motor and batteries to do the launch, and a generator to keep the batteries charged? That might give a more easily controlled, possibly automated, power system, but retain the indpendence of a gas/diesel winch. Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically) might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of the gliders we fly now. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#54
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soaring into the future
Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that
are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically) might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of the gliders we fly now. Hi Eric, Maybe instead of the word "cheaper" we could use modern and affordable! These new Modern and Affordable sailplanes could be designed from the start to take advantage of these "alternative" methods of launch! Brad |
#55
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soaring into the future
Well Steve, you need to come to the convention and meet with Brad, me,
and some other like minded folks. I completely agree with your first post about the geezers with money, (sorry guys). BTW are you THE Steve Davis, Genesis guy from CO? MM On Dec 27, 1:56*am, Steve Davis wrote: Hi Mat, I'm in favor of a Marske or Genesis spar and frame with a PETG skin. *PETG is the clear plastic that everything comes packaged in. *I can't bend it, scratch it and can barely cut it with scissors. *The stuff is everywhere, it can be recycled, surely it can also fly? *It can snap together AND be ultrasonic welded. *Graphlite spars, PETG bulkheads, ribs and stringers and the strong shape of the Genesis. It could be done.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdEjloYJ0 At 00:01 27 December 2007, wrote: Why did the *1-26 do so well and is STILL doing well. For crying out loud, they still have their own contest a billion years after it was introduced! * I don't understand it but we ought to really take a hard look at it. I'm not saying that we want brand new 1-26s. *I sure don't. *Brand new Cherokee IIs either. *Tony and I have more fun per dollar in our little wood ships than most out there but we wouldn't mind a little more performance, modern materials and safety features, easier rigging... *But paying $25000 for it? *Are you kidding?! The PW-5 is a fun glider but it costs a fortune to most people and looks wrong to most of the rest. *I don't think performance is the reason it didn't 'take off' The new people we need in soaring are only going to desire 40 or 50 to 1 if we teach them that's what they need to have fun, earn badges, have great flights, keep up with their friends. Why cant we design a higher performance homebuilt quick kit that has basic components built by existing manufacturing processes then quality checked and assembled by individuals,clubs, or commercial operations? *A modular homebuilt (that satisfies the 51% rule) that handles well, gets better than 35/1, climbs like a woodstock, lands like a PW, and runs like a Discus and costs $10k as a kit *and $15k finished. Look at all the creativity and innovation that led to the Cherokee, the BG-12, the Duster, Scanlon, Tern, Javalin, Bowlus, Carbon Dragon, Woodstock, Monerai, the HPs... *Sure most of those had 'issues' some were real dogs, some were great. *But, they all showed a creativity that seems lacking today. *Imagine combining the best aspects of these classic American homebuilts and applying modern materials, engineering, and manufacturing to the result. Somebody is going to do it. *Some young genius glider kid in Aero E at university with no money thinking outside the box. This isn't rocket science. *It's evolution. *You can either be part of the new wave or a dinosaur. MM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#56
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soaring into the future
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#57
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soaring into the future
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#58
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soaring into the future
Eric, George Moore of Spokane is working on exactly the approach you
suggest. Electric drive offers a seamless CVT drive that lets a computer control the launch to a degree of precision no human winch driver can approach. That precision allows the use of much higher rope tension with much greater safety than the old automobile V8 and non-electronic 4-speed transmission. The key enabler for electric winches is the frenetic work being done on electric, and electric hybrid cars. The required parts are available now but not at attractive prices. The hope is that once these vehicles are in mass production in 5 - 10 years, the component prices will drop substantially. Oh yes, I should mention the rather elegant ESW-2B from Germany which uses 50 car starting batteries as a buffer to store enough power for ~20 launches. This winch is usually connected to the grid to keep the huge battery pack topped up but it can also use a diesel generator. A grid tap or a generator adds substantially to the cost but where electricity is available or where there are extremely noise sensitive airfield neighbors, it's a viable choice. So, the concept of an electric winch is very elegant but not quite economically attractive at this point. It's worth point out that diesel - hydrostatic drive (Hydraulic pumps and motors) achieves the same degree of controllability and the components are almost a commodity. My guess is that hydrostatic drive is the near term solution and electric is a good bet for the middle future if the component prices can drop below hydrostatic components. Bill Daniels "Eric Greenwell" wrote in message news:wlRcj.2733$si6.2097@trndny08... Bill Daniels wrote: Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the Skylaunch at a similar price. Hang tight. What's the winch community's opinion on a "hybrid" winch, which uses an electric motor and batteries to do the launch, and a generator to keep the batteries charged? That might give a more easily controlled, possibly automated, power system, but retain the indpendence of a gas/diesel winch. Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically) might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of the gliders we fly now. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#59
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soaring into the future
Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:01 am, Steve Davis wrote: At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote: Soaring in America needs high altitude high capacity winch launch locations, We need enough glider pilots concentrated in specific geographic areas to justify a high capacity winch launch operations, sort of a chicken and egg problem. I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported a Skylaunch kit sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine and transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable winch with a reasonable outlay. I'm trying to pull together a syndicate to do precisely that. The economics make it difficult to justify for existing clubs and commercial operations, which were structured and located based on the (past) availability of low cost aero tows. Importing a Skylaunch kit and completing it wth locally sourced engine, transmission, etc., still costs around US $80K, or roughly 2.5 low time Pawnees (or 1 Pawnee, an engine, and a good bit of avgas). I suspect you can imagine the way the discussion goes at most clubs here... two seat trainers which are economical to buy and operate The PW6U and forthcoming Perkow spring to mind. The latter looks particularly promising with 40:1 XC performance. As both are Polish they don't come with the Germany premium. With the exchange rate as it is (and it isn't going to get better any time soon), a properly equipped PW6 with trailer costs something over US $90K, the Perkow will cost even more. Once again, those prices are well beyond what most clubs and commercial operations can readily afford or justify. and a single seat glider with launch and handling capabilities similar to the trainer so a student doesn't need to re-learn to fly so he/she can fly it. Astir; also the Junior too which is still made and designed for precisely that role, that it does very well. For a cheap "hot" (well, OK, mildly warm) ship get a Cirrus. Many US clubs now have ships like that. The problem now is that the high prices for new gliders are having a ripple effect, which means demand now outstrips supply for good mid-range ($25K to $35K) single seat gliders. There are a lot of gliders around that should have been refinished 10 years ago (and now can't be economically), but not as many good low cost gliders to build a club around. I think a lot of the solutions now exist, it just needs some motivated people to make it happen and then tell the world (or at least the rest of the US) of their success. I wish it was as easy as you think... Marc |
#60
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soaring into the future
At 14:24 27 December 2007, John Galloway wrote:
It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed. That way you would have a thoroughly proven system, be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical assemblies across the Atlantic at all. I've heard that Skylaunch don't want to know as they realise that the first time some numpty in America spins off one of their winches (or winch designs) they're liable to get their ass sued to the ends of the earth by an ambulance chasing lawyer. |
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