Safety pilot "flight time"

Thanks Mark, I think after reading pages and pages of this topic it's
starting to get clearer (especially the SIC/PIC difference). I can log
the time I put in the PIC or SIC column in the flight duration column,
right? So this could count towards the 250 hr. Commercial rating
requirement?

On Jan 22, 5:18 pm, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 01/22/07 17:02, kevmor wrote:

My question was actually what to put in the "flight duration" or "total
flight time" field of your logbook, if anything. For example, I have a
friend who wants to start his instrument rating. I want to fly with
him between his CFI lessons to let him practice and give tips. If I
can log "flight time" along with the "PIC" (when he's under the hood)
to get time towards a higher rating, that would be great. Should the
"flight time" be equal to the PIC (him under the hood)?If you agree before the flight that you will be PIC while he is under
the hood, then you can log it as PIC for the time that he is under
the hood. If he remains PIC for the flight, then you can log as SIC
the time that he is under the hood.



I think the FAA or AOPA should come out with a quick reference card for
this sort of thing! Well, that's probably true of a lot of areas. Also, there's a lot of
differing opinions here. The FAA does, from time to time, write legal
opinions on subjects where the FARs are not very clear. Bob Moore
was kind enough to post the results of one which is appropriate to
this discussion.



Bob Moore wrote:
Jim Macklin wrote
Yes, please post the entire letter.

How many times do we have to argue this issue?
Every year?--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On 01/22/07 18:24, kevmor wrote:
Thanks Mark, I think after reading pages and pages of this topic it's
starting to get clearer (especially the SIC/PIC difference). I can log
the time I put in the PIC or SIC column in the flight duration column,
right?

That's the way I understand it.

So this could count towards the 250 hr. Commercial rating
requirement?

You'd have to look at the Commercial rating requirements to see if
there are any restrictions mentioned there. Otherwise, yes.

I haven't looked at the commercial rating requirements in a while...


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:20:51 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

For Part 91 flights, the non-instructor must be PIC on a flight which
requires two flight crew members if he is not the sole manipulator.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:22:44 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are
not actually sole manipulator of the controls.

Not true.

A non manipulating PIC may log PIC time if the flight requires two flight
crew members. And that is the case if the pilot flying is wearing a
view-limiting device (and the pilots have agreed in advance that the safety
pilot will act as PIC).
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:15:52 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

A safety pilot just looks out the window and can only log
SIC, they are a required crewmember/observer, but rarely
actually even touch the controls, almost never sole
manipulator.

If they are required, and acting as PIC, there is no requirement for them
to be the sole manipulator.

This is according to both FAA regulations and written interpretations from
the FAA lawyers.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:49:04 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

FAR 1.1 does not and is not controlling for the PURPOSE of
logging flight time. Logging time is required only to show
compliance with some regulation for some certificate or
privilege. To that end, 61.51 is controlling. 61.51
requires manipulation of the controls to LOG PIC.

Perhaps you should either cite the legal counsel's letter or
re-read it.




Legal opinion citation:

June 22, 1977 to Mr. Thomas Beane

....
A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I)
when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one
on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or
under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is
acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g.
airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority
and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC
time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually
manipulating the controls of the aircraft.
....

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN

for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations &
Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel

=============================

He actually notes three instance under which the non-manipulating pilot may
log PIC time:

1. More than one pilot required under type certificate.
2. More than one pilot required under regulations (e.g. safety pilot)
3. Pilot manipulating not appropriately rated.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 21 Jan 2007 19:22:35 -0800, "kevmor" wrote:

When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under the "duration of
flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a friend who is
wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for the flight before
hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had the hood on, and
under the "total flight time" column, put the same as the PIC/when he
was wearing the hood?

Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most of the flight,
you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight, because you were
a required crew member. But once he takes it off though, you aren't
required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC time.

According to my interpretation of 61.51, you would log as "total flight
time" the time from when the a/c begins moving for the purpose of flight,
until the time when it stops moving.

---------------------------------------
14 CFR 1.1

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power
for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after
landing;

....
----------------------------------------
14 CFR 61.51

b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of
paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following
information for each flight or lesson logged:

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

....

(2) Type of pilot experience or training—

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

....
------------------------------------------

In the scenario you cite, *IF* you meet all of the requirements to *ACT* as
PIC (currency, ratings, endorsements, etc), then, given your agreement with
the pilot flying, you may log PIC time for that part of the flight during
which the pilot flying is "under the hood". If you do not have the
appropriate endorsements, you may log that time as SIC time.

You may not log either PIC or SIC time during that period when the pilot
flying is NOT under the hood (assuming the pilot flying is qualified to act
as PIC).
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:20:51 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:

You can log PIC, instructor or not, any time you are either acting as
PIC, or the sole manipulator of the controls.

For Part 91 flights, the non-instructor must be PIC on a flight which
requires two flight crew members if he is not the sole manipulator.

That is correct. My statement was in the context of a question about
safety-piloting (a flight which requires two flight crew members) and in
the context of a reply to a specific posting that claimed you had to be
an instructor to log PIC if you weren't manipulating the controls. I
didn't spell out all the restrictions because I thought it was clear
from the context.

In the future I will respond to questions of this kind by just saying
"read 61.51". Actually that's still a pretty good answer. There's a lot
of misinformation in this thread that can be cleared up in a few seconds
spent reading 61.51.

On 01/23/07 04:56, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On 21 Jan 2007 19:22:35 -0800, "kevmor" wrote:

When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under the "duration of
flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a friend who is
wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for the flight before
hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had the hood on, and
under the "total flight time" column, put the same as the PIC/when he
was wearing the hood?

Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most of the flight,
you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight, because you were
a required crew member. But once he takes it off though, you aren't
required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC time.

According to my interpretation of 61.51, you would log as "total flight
time" the time from when the a/c begins moving for the purpose of flight,
until the time when it stops moving.

---------------------------------------
14 CFR 1.1

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power
for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after
landing;

...
----------------------------------------
14 CFR 61.51

b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of
paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following
information for each flight or lesson logged:

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

...

(2) Type of pilot experience or training�

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

...
------------------------------------------

In the scenario you cite, *IF* you meet all of the requirements to *ACT* as
PIC (currency, ratings, endorsements, etc), then, given your agreement with
the pilot flying, you may log PIC time for that part of the flight during
which the pilot flying is "under the hood". If you do not have the
appropriate endorsements, you may log that time as SIC time.

You may not log either PIC or SIC time during that period when the pilot
flying is NOT under the hood (assuming the pilot flying is qualified to act
as PIC).
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

But ... and I hadn't considered this until now... you would still log the
entire flight time as "total flight time" even though the amount of time
logged under PIC, SIC or both is less than the total.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Hmm... but then doesn't that seem kind of far fetched if you decide
before takeoff the safety pilot will be PIC, then the other person
wears the hood for .3 hours, the safety pilot can log the entire
flight, maybe 5 hours, as towards their total time? I wonder if any
examiner would question logging that much time? I could say, "hey,
wear this for a few minutes", then we both log the total time.

On Jan 23, 7:05 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 01/23/07 04:56, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



On 21 Jan 2007 19:22:35 -0800, "kevmor" wrote:

When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under the "duration of
flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a friend who is
wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for the flight before
hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had the hood on, and
under the "total flight time" column, put the same as the PIC/when he
was wearing the hood?

Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most of the flight,
you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight, because you were
a required crew member. But once he takes it off though, you aren't
required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC time.

According to my interpretation of 61.51, you would log as "total flight
time" the time from when the a/c begins moving for the purpose of flight,
until the time when it stops moving.

---------------------------------------
14 CFR 1.1

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power
for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after
landing;

...
----------------------------------------
14 CFR 61.51

b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of
paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following
information for each flight or lesson logged:

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

...

(2) Type of pilot experience or training?

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

...
------------------------------------------

In the scenario you cite, *IF* you meet all of the requirements to *ACT* as
PIC (currency, ratings, endorsements, etc), then, given your agreement with
the pilot flying, you may log PIC time for that part of the flight during
which the pilot flying is "under the hood". If you do not have the
appropriate endorsements, you may log that time as SIC time.

You may not log either PIC or SIC time during that period when the pilot
flying is NOT under the hood (assuming the pilot flying is qualified to act
as PIC).
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)But ... and I hadn't considered this until now... you would still log the
entire flight time as "total flight time" even though the amount of time
logged under PIC, SIC or both is less than the total.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA