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New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 13th 19, 05:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 3,723
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

Darryl said it far better than I could have.* What I meant is that I
believe Mode 3A transponders with Mode C are becoming obsolete and, for
all the reasons Darryl said, I agree on the TT-22 from Trig. I've had
one installed for about 8 years and about a year ago added a Trig TN-70
ADS-B Out to it.* I highly recommend it.* The TT-21 is a couple hundred
dollars less expensive, but it is not approved for 1090ES.* I don't know
about UAT.

On 10/12/2019 6:24 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 at 3:51:31 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 10/12/2019 7:45 AM:
.... Better, still, the transponder will alert the controlling agency to your
presence.* And don't waste your money on a Mode 3A/C transponder. Get Mode S.

How much would a Mode S decrease the pilot's risk, compared to a Mode C (speaking
as a pilot with a Mode C installed, but thinking a Mode S might be more useful)?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

None at all in practice.

And I expect Dan was giving general advice to buy new Mode S transponders, not new Mode C.

Let me try to say it how I would... If you are buying a new transponder for a glider get a Trig TT22. This is very specific advice... "not Mode S", not any other transponder.... There is *no* other compact transponder suitable for use in gliders in the USA that provide you with ADS-B Out options. Becker, Air-Avionics,.... none of them provide a Mode S transponder today that meets the 2020 14 CFR 91.227 technical requirements.

Using a Trig TT22 gives you all the options to upgrade to ADS-B Out if you want to do that now or in future, including TABS or 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out.

But, but, but.. if a Mode C transponder is all you have or can afford that is *great* compared to nothing in environments like flying in the area being discussed. In practice, ground based SSR, TCAS, Military IFF interrogators will see your aircraft just as effectively as if you had a Mode S transponder. If you have ADS-B Out added to a TT22 then more GA aircraft will see you, and ATC may see you in areas normally outside of SSR coverage... although the particular area being discussed has significant holes in it's ADS-B ground receiver coverage as well.

One thing I ask folks who are upgrading older transponders like Becker ATC 4401 Mode C to a Trig TT22 is please find a junior pilot or other active local pilots who don't have or can't afford a transponder and give them your old transponder, or at least give them a deal they can't refuse.



--
Dan, 5J
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  #42  
Old October 16th 19, 02:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike N.
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Posts: 30
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

What about adding a Trig TN72 to an existing TT21 transponder installation?

Will this combination provide ADS-B out?

Yes, I do already know that the TT21 is not certified for ADS-B out.

I have read some other threads about the TT21 being the same as the TT22 with the exception that the TT21 does not meet power output requirements for 2020 ADS-B output.
However I also read on a previous thread that originally ADS-B was supposed to be phased in 2 levels, and that the TT21 was made to be useable for the lower level of ADS-B out, and that level is no longer going to be an option.

So I am curious/ interested if the TN72 work in combination with a TT21 and provide ADS-B out, recognizable to local traffic, even if not a the required output wattage?
  #43  
Old October 16th 19, 02:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

What about what? What are you replying to?

I've covered this before but here is a recap -

ADS-B is a marketing fluff term. The details or exactly what "ADS-B" thing you mean are all important. A TT-21 cannot do 2020 Compliant (aka 14 CFR 91.227 compliant, aka SIL=3) ADS-B Out. It can do TABS/TSO-C199 (aka SIL=1) 1090ES Out with a TN72. And that lets all other aircraft with 1090ES In "see you ("any old GPS"/COTS aka SIL=0 installs are *not* seen by IFR/TSO-ed 1090ES In receivers), and if all the requirements for ADS-R are being met it also means UAT-In equipped aircraft see you.

FAA ATC controllers do *not* see TABS/SIL=1 aircraft displayed on their traffic displays, but they will see those targets via SSR if within range.

And I'll repeat my advice, it is stupidly simple: if buying a transponder today get a Trig TT22, it gives you all the option of Transponder only, TABS or full 2020 Complaint 1090ES if you want it in future.

A TT21 to TT22 upgrade is currently around $1k, the price difference between then when buying new is ~$125.

A TN72 GPS is pretty cheap ~$350 plus antenna, that any folks might as well add one to any TT21 or TT22 install. In an experimental glider with TT22 that can be configured for 2020 Compliance/SIL-3, all other configurations it can only be configured to do TABS. TABS gives visibility to airborne ADS-B receivers, makes gliders visible to PowerFLARM at much longer range than having PowerFLARM only, and makes the glider a client for TIS-B and ADS-R ADS-B In ground services (but that needs a TIS-B and ADS-R compatible receiver, which PowerFLARM is not currently).

Anybody installing a SIL=3 system with a TT21 risks a chat with the FAA. If a type certified glider, easier to track down and your A&P hopefully will not ever allow this. Yes I'm aware of legal arguments that you can do whatever you want if not intending to use to meet 14 CFR 91.225. Good luck with arguing that one with the FAA.

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:08:27 PM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
What about adding a Trig TN72 to an existing TT21 transponder installation?

Will this combination provide ADS-B out?

Yes, I do already know that the TT21 is not certified for ADS-B out.

I have read some other threads about the TT21 being the same as the TT22 with the exception that the TT21 does not meet power output requirements for 2020 ADS-B output.
However I also read on a previous thread that originally ADS-B was supposed to be phased in 2 levels, and that the TT21 was made to be useable for the lower level of ADS-B out, and that level is no longer going to be an option.

So I am curious/ interested if the TN72 work in combination with a TT21 and provide ADS-B out, recognizable to local traffic, even if not a the required output wattage?


  #44  
Old October 16th 19, 05:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Posts: 548
Default New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

The main point in my comment to the Feds...
The only difference between the MOAs I fly in every day and this proposal is radar coverage.
Jim

 




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