Discount Airfare

"Tri-Pacer" wrote in message
. ..

"
I just don't understand people who jump out of perfectly good
airplanes...



Try it---you'll like it. :-)

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU

WOW!! Just look at all that old stuff you're wearing! What's in that big
pouch in front?!? .....and check out that main cutaway system!
I didn't realize they had photography back then. :-) You probably had a
"DaVinci" main canopy, didn't you? ;-)

Even though I'm an old guy, I started jumping recently enough to have never
had a round canopy on my back and I made my pre-second jump from a CASA 212
tailgate.

BSBCU, Tony P.

Square Wheels wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:42:18 -0500, CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

Tri-Pacer wrote:
"
I just don't understand people who jump out of perfectly good airplanes...


Try it---you'll like it. :-)

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU




Yes you will.



I have 163 military static line jumps and 250+ free fall civilian hops.
It's fun and the folks you jump with are a very interesting cross
section of society.

Cheers,

Dave

Just curious: roughly how many /military/ people die in simple training or
practice jumps (non-combat or test flights) per year? Not many, I'd guess.

Civilian 'for-fun' jumpers do not have a particularly good record.



There are very few military fatalities when occur during parachute
operations. Combat, of course , is a different story. However, even
the 300 foot night jump made by the 75th Rangers in Panama (too low to
open a reserve) was an accident free jump with the exception of a couple
of soldiers who were wounded by enemy fire after then arrived on the
ground. Military jumps are usually from either 500 or 600 feet to
simulate tactical conditions, which provides about 3 seconds to deploy a
reserve. The T7 reserve system now has an automatic deployment
capability and the jumper no longer must "help" the canopy to deploy
after pulling the rip cord. The main chute, of course, is static line
deployed. Actual combat jumps are done from an altitude of from 300
feet to 600 feet depending upon weather, hours of daylight or darkness
and the possibility of hostile fire from the ground during the
deployment. Only a few major jumps -- all of which were made during
World War Two -- were done in the actual face of enemy troops on the
ground and thus there were many casualties of soldiers who were wounded
or killed by enemies on the ground shooting them while they were in the
air. Of course both the Germans and the Japanese made it a habit of
shooting at parachutists who were escaping from downed aircraft also --
a commentary on their deliberate failure in observation of various
customs of war.

Free fall parachuting is employed in the military by Special Operations
personnel. Usually the HALO (High Altitude, Low Opening) method is
used. HALO jumpers may deploy from aircraft as high in altitude at
60,000+ feet and have not only highly maneuverable parafoils but also
high altitude life support equipment. The combat jumps made during
Desert Storm and the present conflict have all been HALO by Special
Operations Operators. Remember that a HALO from 60,000 feet using a B52
aircraft and deployment from the forward bomb bay, will allow a jumper
to travel some 200 miles "cross country" before grounding. Using GPS
and other guidance technology, a HALO team can deploy over the Gulf and
land inside a patio garden in Tehran, Iran in a matter of an hour or so
of "flying" time.

I can confidently state that there are very few (maybe one or two)
fatalities from military jumps per year and the US Army has a record of
going several years in a row without serious injury or death. There are
always minor jump injuries, particularly when you jump with a full
equipment load of some 120 lbs but seeing a jump where there are either
major malfunctions or failures is rare. Double failures are almost
never seen. Although I have personally been in a stick where a jumper's
main failed then partially deployed, and then when he deployed his
reserve it became entangled. He should have actuated his Capewell
Releases and cut away the main before deploying the reserve, but he was
on the ground before he figured that out. He broke both legs and was
off jump status for some 10 months before returning. I saw infrequent
but spectacular heavy equipment drop failures, including one on the
Maurey Dropzone at Ft Bragg where we were on the ground and then watched
three 100-foot chutes deploy, become intertwined and then roman candle.
If anything the 2-1/2 ton truck which was under the chutes went even
faster to the ground. It made a hole some 25 feet across and 10 feet
deep and suffice it to say that truck went off to Property Disposal Yard
in pieces. It was way cool to see it, however, and we all cheered and
danced around like idiots when it happened until the First Sergeant came
over and gave us all 100 pushups for acting the fool.

Parachute packing by US Army Parachute Riggers is a separate and unique
career field within the US Army. Riggers are elite members of the
Quartermaster Corps and are, without a doubt, the best Riggers on the
planet. The process of packing is very complex and in the military
takes place under rigorous and very strict procedures. Riggers then
jump randomly selected chutes from a big pile in the middle of the
hanger floor, just like we did when marching through to collect our
gear. Reserves in one pile and mains in another pile. No pack is
allowed to have any special identification marks so that one looks just
like the other.

Civilian parachuting is held to a different standard, although one which
is supposed to be a rigorous and exacting as the FAA rules require.
However, I have seen people pack their own chutes and when I gently and
politely asked them if they had checked "so and so" I got a blank look.
After I pointed out the error they usually said something like "Gee,
Sure glad we found that". Those folks are the statistics and quite
frankly they were one of a couple of reasons I stopped jumping. Getting
on a lift with guys and gals who were careless wasn't my idea of fun. I
would say that probably 95% of all sport parachutists are safety
conscious and a deadly serious when it comes to their equipment and to
their Relative Work during the fall, but there are always a few
statistics who make an bad impact upon the whole sport (pun intended).

I could go on, but think you got the picture.

Cheers,

Dave

"muff528" wrote in message
news:jkRUi.252$oy4.107@trnddc08...

"Grumpy AuContraire" wrote in message
...


Bob Harrington wrote:

"Dan Edwards" wrote in
:
You're absolutely right Luke. I have made 3 static line jumps from
3500 ft. AGL 7 years ago when I was crazy. I'm all better now...

-Dan Edwards-


Looks like you weren't the first person to leave permanent hand grip
imprints on the wing strut... =)


I just don't understand people who jump out of perfectly good
airplanes...

JT



You haven't seen some of the airplanes I've jumped out of! :0)
Just Kidding (cough), TP



I highly recommend that everyone jump at least once. It puts you in touch
with your own mortality.


Regards, PLMerite

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:30:40 -0500, CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

Square Wheels wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:42:18 -0500, CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

Tri-Pacer wrote:
"
I just don't understand people who jump out of perfectly good airplanes...


Try it---you'll like it. :-)

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU




Yes you will.



I have 163 military static line jumps and 250+ free fall civilian hops.
It's fun and the folks you jump with are a very interesting cross
section of society.

Cheers,

Dave

Just curious: roughly how many /military/ people die in simple training or
practice jumps (non-combat or test flights) per year? Not many, I'd guess.

Civilian 'for-fun' jumpers do not have a particularly good record.



There are very few military fatalities when occur during parachute
operations. Combat, of course , is a different story. However, even
the 300 foot night jump made by the 75th Rangers in Panama (too low to
open a reserve) was an accident free jump with the exception of a couple
of soldiers who were wounded by enemy fire after then arrived on the
ground. Military jumps are usually from either 500 or 600 feet to
simulate tactical conditions, which provides about 3 seconds to deploy a
reserve. The T7 reserve system now has an automatic deployment
capability and the jumper no longer must "help" the canopy to deploy
after pulling the rip cord. The main chute, of course, is static line
deployed. Actual combat jumps are done from an altitude of from 300
feet to 600 feet depending upon weather, hours of daylight or darkness
and the possibility of hostile fire from the ground during the
deployment. Only a few major jumps -- all of which were made during
World War Two -- were done in the actual face of enemy troops on the
ground and thus there were many casualties of soldiers who were wounded
or killed by enemies on the ground shooting them while they were in the
air. Of course both the Germans and the Japanese made it a habit of
shooting at parachutists who were escaping from downed aircraft also --
a commentary on their deliberate failure in observation of various
customs of war.

Free fall parachuting is employed in the military by Special Operations
personnel. Usually the HALO (High Altitude, Low Opening) method is
used. HALO jumpers may deploy from aircraft as high in altitude at
60,000+ feet and have not only highly maneuverable parafoils but also
high altitude life support equipment. The combat jumps made during
Desert Storm and the present conflict have all been HALO by Special
Operations Operators. Remember that a HALO from 60,000 feet using a B52
aircraft and deployment from the forward bomb bay, will allow a jumper
to travel some 200 miles "cross country" before grounding. Using GPS
and other guidance technology, a HALO team can deploy over the Gulf and
land inside a patio garden in Tehran, Iran in a matter of an hour or so
of "flying" time.

I can confidently state that there are very few (maybe one or two)
fatalities from military jumps per year and the US Army has a record of
going several years in a row without serious injury or death. There are
always minor jump injuries, particularly when you jump with a full
equipment load of some 120 lbs but seeing a jump where there are either
major malfunctions or failures is rare. Double failures are almost
never seen. Although I have personally been in a stick where a jumper's
main failed then partially deployed, and then when he deployed his
reserve it became entangled. He should have actuated his Capewell
Releases and cut away the main before deploying the reserve, but he was
on the ground before he figured that out. He broke both legs and was
off jump status for some 10 months before returning. I saw infrequent
but spectacular heavy equipment drop failures, including one on the
Maurey Dropzone at Ft Bragg where we were on the ground and then watched
three 100-foot chutes deploy, become intertwined and then roman candle.
If anything the 2-1/2 ton truck which was under the chutes went even
faster to the ground. It made a hole some 25 feet across and 10 feet
deep and suffice it to say that truck went off to Property Disposal Yard
in pieces. It was way cool to see it, however, and we all cheered and
danced around like idiots when it happened until the First Sergeant came
over and gave us all 100 pushups for acting the fool.

Parachute packing by US Army Parachute Riggers is a separate and unique
career field within the US Army. Riggers are elite members of the
Quartermaster Corps and are, without a doubt, the best Riggers on the
planet. The process of packing is very complex and in the military
takes place under rigorous and very strict procedures. Riggers then
jump randomly selected chutes from a big pile in the middle of the
hanger floor, just like we did when marching through to collect our
gear. Reserves in one pile and mains in another pile. No pack is
allowed to have any special identification marks so that one looks just
like the other.

Civilian parachuting is held to a different standard, although one which
is supposed to be a rigorous and exacting as the FAA rules require.
However, I have seen people pack their own chutes and when I gently and
politely asked them if they had checked "so and so" I got a blank look.
After I pointed out the error they usually said something like "Gee,
Sure glad we found that". Those folks are the statistics and quite
frankly they were one of a couple of reasons I stopped jumping. Getting
on a lift with guys and gals who were careless wasn't my idea of fun. I
would say that probably 95% of all sport parachutists are safety
conscious and a deadly serious when it comes to their equipment and to
their Relative Work during the fall, but there are always a few
statistics who make an bad impact upon the whole sport (pun intended).

I could go on, but think you got the picture.

Cheers,

Dave

Wow!

Quite a thorough answer, and really appreciated, Dave.

Always wondered about the actual stats, and especially liked what you said
about the media.

F'rinstance, have you /ever/ seen or heard a newsreader talk about a bad
fire without using the term 'raging inferno'? I never have! Too much
scripting.....

BTW, is the HALO jump like the one in the Bond flick? They referred to it
-- I think -- as High Altitude, Low Observability.

Thank again, very much!

--
OK, Colorado, let's bean Boston.

Almost every year, NYY or Beantown. Boooooring!

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:50:34 +0000, muff528 wrote:


Just curious: roughly how many /military/ people die in simple training or
practice jumps (non-combat or test flights) per year? Not many, I'd guess.

Civilian 'for-fun' jumpers do not have a particularly good record.

--
OK, Colorado, let's bean Boston.

Almost every year, NYY or Beantown. Boooooring!



Numbers for 2005 from USPS website
http://www.uspa.org/about/page2/relative_safety.htm

962 USPA members had injuries requiring medical attention.
27 Fatalities
2,200,000 jumps

Not too bad statistically. Also, in recent years a large percentage of
fatalities have been caused by judgemental errors or mistakes made during an
attempted high-performance landing rather than equipment failure.

Most news reporting of skydiving fatalities plays on the average person's
fear of heights/falling by using descriptive terminology like "plummeted to
his/her death" or "parachute failed to open" no matter what actually
happened. Sensationalism sells news. Many of today's deaths occur after the
jumper is under an open, normally functioning canopy.

BSBCU, TP

Not bad at all statistically! That's only one fatality out of every
81481.5 jumps, and one injury out of 2287 jumps.

Then consider the odds of getting squashed flat just crossing the street!

Thanks extremely!



--
OK, Colorado, let's bean Boston.

Almost every year, NYY or Beantown. Boooooring!

"PLMerite" wrote in message
news:hmTUi.1954$R%4.281@trnddc05...

I highly recommend that everyone jump at least once. It puts you in touch
with your own mortality.


As for myself, I've had quit enough near death experiences brought about
by accident or misfortune to be plenty in touch with my own mortality. I
can't imagine purposefully placing my life in jeapardy just to feel alive or
to further my understanding of my place in the cosmic scheme of things. But
I'll be damned if I'll try to stop anyone else from trying it....
OTOH, some say that my motorcycles are a manifestation of a death
wish.... (shrug).


Luke

"Luke" wrote in message
...

"PLMerite" wrote in message
news:hmTUi.1954$R%4.281@trnddc05...

I highly recommend that everyone jump at least once. It puts you in
touch with your own mortality.


As for myself, I've had quit enough near death experiences brought
about by accident or misfortune to be plenty in touch with my own
mortality. I can't imagine purposefully placing my life in jeapardy just
to feel alive or to further my understanding of my place in the cosmic
scheme of things. But I'll be damned if I'll try to stop anyone else from
trying it....
OTOH, some say that my motorcycles are a manifestation of a death
wish.... (shrug).


Motorcycles have always scared me. They require constant vigilance and
skill to keep from getting killed. A parachute, on the other hand, is
either going to work or not, and you get instant feedback.


Regards, PLMerite





Luke

CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

Tri-Pacer wrote:

"

I just don't understand people who jump out of perfectly good
airplanes...



Try it---you'll like it. :-)

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU




Yes you will.



I have 163 military static line jumps and 250+ free fall civilian hops.
It's fun and the folks you jump with are a very interesting corss
section of society.

Cheers,

Dave



I'm sure... Yer all nutz!!!

G

JT

(Who would rather swim with sharks, barracuda 'n rays...)

Square Wheels wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:30:40 -0500, CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

Square Wheels wrote:
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:42:18 -0500, CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

Tri-Pacer wrote:
"
I just don't understand people who jump out of perfectly good airplanes...

Try it---you'll like it. :-)

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU



Yes you will.



I have 163 military static line jumps and 250+ free fall civilian hops.
It's fun and the folks you jump with are a very interesting cross
section of society.

Cheers,

Dave
Just curious: roughly how many /military/ people die in simple training or
practice jumps (non-combat or test flights) per year? Not many, I'd guess.

Civilian 'for-fun' jumpers do not have a particularly good record.


There are very few military fatalities when occur during parachute
operations. Combat, of course , is a different story. However, even
the 300 foot night jump made by the 75th Rangers in Panama (too low to
open a reserve) was an accident free jump with the exception of a couple
of soldiers who were wounded by enemy fire after then arrived on the
ground. Military jumps are usually from either 500 or 600 feet to
simulate tactical conditions, which provides about 3 seconds to deploy a
reserve. The T7 reserve system now has an automatic deployment
capability and the jumper no longer must "help" the canopy to deploy
after pulling the rip cord. The main chute, of course, is static line
deployed. Actual combat jumps are done from an altitude of from 300
feet to 600 feet depending upon weather, hours of daylight or darkness
and the possibility of hostile fire from the ground during the
deployment. Only a few major jumps -- all of which were made during
World War Two -- were done in the actual face of enemy troops on the
ground and thus there were many casualties of soldiers who were wounded
or killed by enemies on the ground shooting them while they were in the
air. Of course both the Germans and the Japanese made it a habit of
shooting at parachutists who were escaping from downed aircraft also --
a commentary on their deliberate failure in observation of various
customs of war.

Free fall parachuting is employed in the military by Special Operations
personnel. Usually the HALO (High Altitude, Low Opening) method is
used. HALO jumpers may deploy from aircraft as high in altitude at
60,000+ feet and have not only highly maneuverable parafoils but also
high altitude life support equipment. The combat jumps made during
Desert Storm and the present conflict have all been HALO by Special
Operations Operators. Remember that a HALO from 60,000 feet using a B52
aircraft and deployment from the forward bomb bay, will allow a jumper
to travel some 200 miles "cross country" before grounding. Using GPS
and other guidance technology, a HALO team can deploy over the Gulf and
land inside a patio garden in Tehran, Iran in a matter of an hour or so
of "flying" time.

I can confidently state that there are very few (maybe one or two)
fatalities from military jumps per year and the US Army has a record of
going several years in a row without serious injury or death. There are
always minor jump injuries, particularly when you jump with a full
equipment load of some 120 lbs but seeing a jump where there are either
major malfunctions or failures is rare. Double failures are almost
never seen. Although I have personally been in a stick where a jumper's
main failed then partially deployed, and then when he deployed his
reserve it became entangled. He should have actuated his Capewell
Releases and cut away the main before deploying the reserve, but he was
on the ground before he figured that out. He broke both legs and was
off jump status for some 10 months before returning. I saw infrequent
but spectacular heavy equipment drop failures, including one on the
Maurey Dropzone at Ft Bragg where we were on the ground and then watched
three 100-foot chutes deploy, become intertwined and then roman candle.
If anything the 2-1/2 ton truck which was under the chutes went even
faster to the ground. It made a hole some 25 feet across and 10 feet
deep and suffice it to say that truck went off to Property Disposal Yard
in pieces. It was way cool to see it, however, and we all cheered and
danced around like idiots when it happened until the First Sergeant came
over and gave us all 100 pushups for acting the fool.

Parachute packing by US Army Parachute Riggers is a separate and unique
career field within the US Army. Riggers are elite members of the
Quartermaster Corps and are, without a doubt, the best Riggers on the
planet. The process of packing is very complex and in the military
takes place under rigorous and very strict procedures. Riggers then
jump randomly selected chutes from a big pile in the middle of the
hanger floor, just like we did when marching through to collect our
gear. Reserves in one pile and mains in another pile. No pack is
allowed to have any special identification marks so that one looks just
like the other.

Civilian parachuting is held to a different standard, although one which
is supposed to be a rigorous and exacting as the FAA rules require.
However, I have seen people pack their own chutes and when I gently and
politely asked them if they had checked "so and so" I got a blank look.
After I pointed out the error they usually said something like "Gee,
Sure glad we found that". Those folks are the statistics and quite
frankly they were one of a couple of reasons I stopped jumping. Getting
on a lift with guys and gals who were careless wasn't my idea of fun. I
would say that probably 95% of all sport parachutists are safety
conscious and a deadly serious when it comes to their equipment and to
their Relative Work during the fall, but there are always a few
statistics who make an bad impact upon the whole sport (pun intended).

I could go on, but think you got the picture.

Cheers,

Dave

Wow!

Quite a thorough answer, and really appreciated, Dave.

Always wondered about the actual stats, and especially liked what you said
about the media.

F'rinstance, have you /ever/ seen or heard a newsreader talk about a bad
fire without using the term 'raging inferno'? I never have! Too much
scripting.....

BTW, is the HALO jump like the one in the Bond flick? They referred to it
-- I think -- as High Altitude, Low Observability.

Thank again, very much!


That's right, the "new" description changed Opening to "Observability".
Although when you jump from 55,000 feet and open at 300 feet, the
whole discussion seems moot.

The Bond skydiving stunt is sort of like HALO. Understand that I was
never a military HALO jumper, just an ordinary grunt. The real covert
folks from the US Special Operations Command wear something which looks
like a spacesuit combined with a flying squirrel outfit and have so many
equipment bags tied to them that they have helpers to get them into the
jump bay. The bags or on 50 foot nylon ropes and are released to hit
the ground ahead of the jumper; or sometimes just released without cords.


Cheers,

Dave

"
WOW!! Just look at all that old stuff you're wearing! What's in that big
pouch in front?!? .....and check out that main cutaway system!
I didn't realize they had photography back then. :-) You probably had a
"DaVinci" main canopy, didn't you? ;-)

Even though I'm an old guy, I started jumping recently enough to have
never had a round canopy on my back and I made my pre-second jump from a
CASA 212 tailgate.

BSBCU, Tony P.

Ouch you really know how to hurt a guy Grin

That picture was taken in the early 60s over Lake Elsinore in California.
The lake was dry back then.

I made my first jump in 54 I think the last in 1970.

I really did have modern equipment on. It was a 28' 7 TU very advanced
canopy. :-)

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A
KPLU