Flying Slow

Trent
That has been a problem for way too long and one reason I maintain our
modern CFI's are getting shorted on their training.
I hope you have good luck finding one for a decent checkout in both
avoidance, and recovery.
Rocky

wrote:
Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?
When is the last time you did it just to sharpen your skills without
prompting by a CFI in the next seat? When is the last time you spent
some diligent time doing stalls and the full range of them with your
aircraft? Are you honestly comfortable with your abilities? I know I
have to think about it every time I go fly and always find some fault
with my performance.
In a previous post it appeared I aggravated some pilots or CFI's with
saying I felt many pilots didn't know how to fly slowly these days. I
have seen a slow errosion of what used to be basic pilot skills and
level of performance with too many pilots compared with acceptable
standards not that many years ago. Now if that won't open a bucket of
worms I'll be surprised.
Fact is, just making the FAA minimums doesn't necessarily make you safe
or even a good pilot.
Care to weigh in on the issues?
I'll be polite in my responses in accordance to the way they are
presented to me. No axe to grind, no ego to inflate (its big enough
already thank you) just a sincere desire to make pilots think a little
more about what they are doing when they go flying. You need to make
your own mistakes to hopefully learn from them and avoid repetition.
Ol Shy & Bashful

I got my private ticket in 1973. Used to fly an old 150 straight tail
with the drooped tips. I did practice alot on slow flight. With full
flaps (40' in them days) and about 1/2 throttle it would climb at 100FPM
and ZERO indicated airspeed. Makes a great platform for sightseeing!
I think the airspeed was around 50 MPH but never really calculated it.
Rocky

On 14 Jan 2005 13:27:11 -0800, "steve.t"
wrote in .com::

I also fly a PA28 (180C). During pre-departure checklist at night my
wife (sitting in the right seat, and not a pilot) reached up to set the
upper door latch as I got to that part of the checklist. I thought she
had latched it for me.

I usually give the door a firm shove when that checklist item comes
up. But this time it was warm, and I wanted to wait until cleared to
take the runway before latching the door.

[...]

I think I want to try this slow flight, at altitude, and see if by
slipping I can get that door shut and latched bottom and top.

My experience revealed that kicking in a bunch of rudder had no effect
on getting the door to latch. Of course, that may have been due to
the cabin vents being open. It would be interesting to know the
results of your tests.

And would you suggest using full flaps at that point?

Well, you can fly slower with flaps deployed, and they may add a bit
of stability while mushing along.

Also, I have several speed mods on this plane, so its actual stall
speed is about 10 MPH less than the stall light is set to come on.

The reduced stall speed with the indicator still set for the pre-mod
stall speed probably causes you to ignore it most times. I wonder
what the FAA and speed-mod manufacturers recommend?

In article .com,
" wrote:

steve.t wrote:

I think I want to try this slow flight, at altitude, and see if by
slipping I can get that door shut and latched bottom and top. And
would
you suggest using full flaps at that point?


I've done this several times in a Cherokee 180 and it works just
fine. Just slow down, extend full flaps and bring the airspeed go just
above the stall (pretend you're doing minimum controllable airspeed on
the private pilot PTS). At that speed, you won't even need to slip.
Just push the door into the (now light) slipstream and give it a firm
pull. It should close without a problem. At that speed, low pressure
will not be exerting much pull on the door and you should be able to
secure the top latch easily.

Has anyone here ever successfully performed (or even attempted) this
maneuver in a Cirrus?

rg

wrote in message
oups.com...
Dudley
Thank you for your reply. On the issue of making mistakes....if a
pilot
never makes one, what have they learned that will take care of them
when the inevitable mistake occurs?
Certainly our goal is to show pilots how to avoid mistakes but I can't
divorce myself from the knowledge I learned from all those I have
made.
How to get out again safely is the goal isn't it?
Cheers
Rocky

I think it has to do with the way you approach both teaching one to fly
and learning to fly, which by the way, I've always considered one in the
same :-)
You are absolutely correct that learning from mistakes is critical. This
is something you ingrain into every new pilot from the gitgo. But
there's another level you can strive to attain, and I believe the sooner
you make the transition from the obvious, (learning from mistakes) into
the development of the mental attitude that defines for you a doctrine
of prevention as your PRIMARY approach to flying, the safer you will be
in the long run.
Just because a pilot is thinking prevention doesn't take him out of the
learning from your mistakes level. That also exists, it just doesn't
exist in the pilot's mental attitude as job one. Job one remains
prevention.
Many pilots never actually manage to make the transition into the
prevention mode, and remain virtually static in the approach they bring
to the flying table. Many fly entire careers without ever REALLY
developing an action rather than reaction mental attitude toward flight
safety.
Your post on developing expertise in the envelope left corner is
actually typical of the prevention approach to flying. I commend you for
using it and attempting to spark a fire under others to do the same. In
my opinion, the prevention approach to flight safety is the only
approach. Never in one's flying career is this more relevant than when
transitioning out of simple airplanes into more high performance
airplanes. Never is this also more relevant than when a pilot begins
doing things with airplanes that require an ever increasing level of
performance.
I believe the mental attitude a pilot develops during his/her initial
phases of flight training will remain with that pilot all through their
career in flying. It's for this reason that the role of the primary
instructor is so important to a new pilot. If the CFI is lacking in
his/her desire to instill in a new pilot the importance of a prevention
approach to flight safety, that omission can have disastrous results
down the road.
In my world of demonstration flying, I have seen 32 of my fellow friends
and professional associates die in accidents. Many of these could have
been prevented.
No...there are many professions in this life where one can afford the
luxury of leaning on axioms like "If I make a mistake, I'll be sure to
learn from it" I just believe that flying airplanes just might not be
the best venue for this type of thinking. I much prefer to turn out a
pilot who's attitude has been drilled into him by my constant reminder
to him that, "You will never reach perfection in your flying, but every
second you spend in the air should be spent TRYING to reach it. Learn
from a mistake by all means, but put your entire effort....your entire
concentration, toward PREVENTING that mistake from happening in the
first place".
Every pilot who has ever been trained by me, ESPECIALLY the instructors,
have left with this drummed into their heads if I've taught them nothing
else.
All the best
Dudley

My citabria doesn't have a stall warning device. I never gave it much
thought until I read your post. I can't say that I miss it.
Dave
68 7ECA

Jim Burns wrote:
.... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
flying?

Jim

wrote in message
oups.com...

Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...
.... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
flying?

Jim

Not a big deal if you know your airplane. My butt and finger tips work
better than a stall warning or the pointer on the airspeed indicator down at
mca.


wrote in message
oups.com...
Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?

"Trent Moorehead" wrote in message
...

"Rob Montgomery" wrote in message
...

If you don't think you could recover from a spin, I would highly
recommend
that you get some spin training, and read up on the spin recovery
techniques
for your particular aircraft. A spin can happen any time the airplane
gets
away from you (not just doing stalls), and knowing how to react is rather
important. Besides, they're an absoloute blast. :-)

Happy flying.

-Rob

I know, I know. Without going into a lot of detail and lame excuses, I
have
had spins demonstrated for me, but have never recovered from them myself.
You're right, they are a blast.

I think the problem so far has been finding instructors who are
comfortable
doing spin training.

-Trent
PP-ASEL


Where abouts are you? Someone may know of a good place. If all else fails,
ask a few CFI's where they did their spin training. Unfortunately, a lot of
schools (the one I work at included) have to prohibit spins in their
aircraft due to the price of new gyros. :-( Consequently, CFI spin training
is usually outsourced.

-Rob

"Trent Moorehead" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes?

I had my CFI run through slow flight with me about 2 weeks ago at night.
Made turns with the rudder only at the slowest point, since the ailerons
were way too mushy. Also worked at lifting falling wings with opposite
rudder at stall break.

I agree with you about this being important and that's why I asked my CFI
to
work with me on slow flight and stalls.

One thing though, it has been my personal rule to only practice stalls
with
an instructor on board. I feel that is reasonable since I am not trained
in
spin recovery. I'd be interested in other's opinions on this.

On the subject of "seat of the pants", the first time I flew with my
present
instructor, he had me fly patterns without an airspeed indicator. I was
extremely nervous because my primary instructors never did this while I
trained for my private ticket. I found that it was a truly liberating
experience and as a result, I generally fly patterns by feel now.

-Trent
PP-ASEL


What is being talked about here is much slower that what is currently being
taught as slow flight.

Hey Rocky!!!
Now there are two of us here so I guess I'd better stick with either
SelwayKid, or Ol Shy & Bashful just to avoid confusion.
Rocky Kemp