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Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?



 
 
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  #111  
Old October 14th 17, 05:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 6:03:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
After passing by I checked my PowerFlarm and found no transponder target.


For powerflarm to see a Mode C or Mode S transponders, the target needs to be interrogated by a ground station or another aircraft.
The powerflarm itself does not interrogate does it?


That is correct.
  #112  
Old October 14th 17, 07:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 6:03:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
After passing by I checked my PowerFlarm and found no transponder target..


For powerflarm to see a Mode C or Mode S transponders, the target needs to be interrogated by a ground station or another aircraft.
The powerflarm itself does not interrogate does it?


As Jon said yes that is correct, and when a fighter is close to the ground its possibly not interrogated by ground based SSR radar. It might be interrogated by airborne TCAS/TCAD systems but even then you may have line of sight obscuration even if there are airborne interrogators around and within range (at least several tens of miles) . And then the glider would need line of site to the fighter jet to receive the PCAS, and you have limited PCAS range and time to react.

PCAS receivers including PowerFLARM might not be much help against fast moving targets in these situations even if they are being interrogated. 1890ES In on the PowerFLARM, if the fighter was equipped with 1090ES Out (and using it) would be more help, but even then down lower the glider pilot may not have many options and not able to guess what the jet is going to do. Getting them to see you via transponder is probably better first layer of technology assistance.

If you fly near fast military traffic I would encourage folks to contact the appropriate ATC controllers (civil and/or military) or air base. The military side especially will likely have a MACA (mid-air collision avoidance) program and somebody there will *want* to talk to you, take it as a time for both sides to educate each other on what what is happening. what equipment ((transponders, ADS-B, PCAS, IFF, etc.) the aircraft have. Many USAF air bases will have MACA information on their web site and who to contact. Fast fighter jets may have active IFF interrogators capable of seeing your transponder (ask them specifically about that). Civil and Military controllers watching over an MOA may also be able to see your transponder on SSR. Military transports and larger aircraft often have full TCAS II. All only useful if your glider has a transponder.

  #113  
Old October 14th 17, 09:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Walt's encounters was over IYK, which happens to have a radar right on the airport. I think this provides coverage up the Owens valley toward Bishop.

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 6:03:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
After passing by I checked my PowerFlarm and found no transponder target.


For powerflarm to see a Mode C or Mode S transponders, the target needs to be interrogated by a ground station or another aircraft.
The powerflarm itself does not interrogate does it?

  #114  
Old October 14th 17, 09:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 1:02:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Walt's encounters was over IYK, which happens to have a radar right on the airport. I think this provides coverage up the Owens valley toward Bishop.

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 6:03:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
After passing by I checked my PowerFlarm and found no transponder target.


For powerflarm to see a Mode C or Mode S transponders, the target needs to be interrogated by a ground station or another aircraft.
The powerflarm itself does not interrogate does it?


  #115  
Old October 14th 17, 09:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 1:02:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Walt's encounters was over IYK, which happens to have a radar right on the airport. I think this provides coverage up the Owens valley toward Bishop.


In hind sight... since I was so close to a the R2505 restricted boundary and China Lake NAS, I probably should have contacted the tower or approach control (just outside 5NM). At that point I did not have a transponder, but now I do have one.

Walt WX
  #116  
Old October 14th 17, 09:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 11:34:22 PM UTC-7, Rich Owen wrote:
Guys, I flew fighters for 22 years. The only time I turned my transponder off was in Libyia and during Desert Storm. Can’t say about my fellow fighter pilots but it was not the norm to leave mode C off. I think if you are in an area where military or civilian “fast movers” fly, a transponder is a smart move! It will never make up for good look out doctrine.

Cheers,
Rich


Rich, I don't think any fighter pilots would intentionally turn off their transponder. Radar coverage was good in my area to trigger a nearby transponder for PowerFlarm detection. Perhaps, since the fighter was operating in R2505, it was turned off for a special mission. He had just popped out of the restricted area for a downwind and turn to land at China Lake.

Walt WX
  #117  
Old October 15th 17, 08:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Rich Owen[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

Walt, when you’re about to bomb someone you turn off the ATC version of the transponder. Any electronic emmisions can help a bad guy shoot you down!!
  #118  
Old October 15th 17, 10:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JB Gunner
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 1:34:22 AM UTC-5, Rich Owen wrote:
Guys, I flew fighters for 22 years. The only time I turned my transponder off was in Libyia and during Desert Storm. Can’t say about my fellow fighter pilots but it was not the norm to leave mode C off. I think if you are in an area where military or civilian “fast movers” fly, a transponder is a smart move! It will never make up for good look out doctrine.

Cheers,
Rich


Thats strange from my experience. I only flew fighters from the late 1980s to the middle 2000s but every place I flew only lead turned on their transponder. So one out of 4 aircraft had it on. The other aircraft where often 1-2 thousand feet off in altitude and 1-2 nm miles spread and 2 miles in trail of each other.

Once in the MOA or IR/VR route the transponder was turned off by all players. It was turned back on by lead when getting a IFR clearance back to base..

When intercepting civilian aircraft flying through a MOA we where advised to ensure the mode c function was off as to not set off TCAS alerts on the aircraft being intercepted.
  #119  
Old October 16th 17, 12:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 12:47:31 PM UTC-7, Rich Owen wrote:
Walt, when you’re about to bomb someone you turn off the ATC version of the transponder. Any electronic emmisions can help a bad guy shoot you down!!


That's a good reason to turn off a transponder! Agreed ...
  #120  
Old October 16th 17, 12:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 2:37:12 PM UTC-7, JB Gunner wrote:
On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 1:34:22 AM UTC-5, Rich Owen wrote:
Guys, I flew fighters for 22 years. The only time I turned my transponder off was in Libyia and during Desert Storm. Can’t say about my fellow fighter pilots but it was not the norm to leave mode C off. I think if you are in an area where military or civilian “fast movers” fly, a transponder is a smart move! It will never make up for good look out doctrine.

Cheers,
Rich


Thats strange from my experience. I only flew fighters from the late 1980s to the middle 2000s but every place I flew only lead turned on their transponder. So one out of 4 aircraft had it on. The other aircraft where often 1-2 thousand feet off in altitude and 1-2 nm miles spread and 2 miles in trail of each other.

Once in the MOA or IR/VR route the transponder was turned off by all players. It was turned back on by lead when getting a IFR clearance back to base.

When intercepting civilian aircraft flying through a MOA we where advised to ensure the mode c function was off as to not set off TCAS alerts on the aircraft being intercepted.


I'm concerned as a glider pilot with that practice... of turning off a fighter transponder in a MOA. How common is that practice.. addressed to any other fighter pilots out there? Most of my glider cross country occurs in a MOA. Sure would like to see fast movers on my PowerFlarm PCAS and in the near future through ADS-B out 1090ES
 




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