Enlistment of skilled personel

"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:0C38c.473$zc1.37@okepread03...
"Ed Rasimus" wrote

One of the first things I learned (it wasn't obvious), was that you end
up mothering your men. The object is to get them through their tour.
There's always one guy who has the IQ of a turd, and these guys are
always popular. You have to really brow-beat the men and find ways
to get their attention. Especially after losing five or six guys in one
battle. They are either very depressed, or very ****ed off, and it takes
constant commands to focus the battle. If you're lucky you have at
least one NCO, who is meaner than you could ever be.

My experience as an enlisted man was very bad (outside of combat).
When you are in the states or some overseas cesspool, just putting in
time, then everyone wants a piece of you for slave labor. I was once
grabbed off the street, and found myself unloading railroad cars. We
had a couple radar troops with us. They felt they were just slaves.
You would never find officers doing that kind of work. But you
would find college graduate highly technical specialists just cannabolized
for the body count. We broke a lot of stuff just to get even.

My experience, at many bases between 1976 and 1997, was completely
different.

Or, is it possible that there are some
officers (I'll contend a lot of them,) who respect their subordinates,
depend upon them for support and value their expertise?

It all makes sense until you see the daily detail list. E-7's driving
bus,
E-8 inventory the clothing store, E-5 waxing the bowling alley, etc.
Then you go to your real job.

Amazingly, in 20 years, I never did (or saw) anything remotely like that.

Details?
Extra duty and training for EDM (RAF Upper Heyford)
Veterans Day parade in Albany NY (Griffiss AFB)
Extra standby duty to unload cargo A/C (Hill AFB)
Tutor for a marginal airman who was failing his CDC/OJT requirements
(Ramstein AB)
Volunteered to outprocess and drive to the airport an airman who was getting
kicked out (Ramstein AB)
Cleanup and final lookaround after the airshow crash at Ramstein

Never did anything like what you report, nor did anyone else I worked with.
I guess flightline personnel were already too overworked to be tasked for
bowling alley waxing.

Of course, other career fields did have other, weird, extra duties. Finance
and CBPO personnel tasked as aux SP's, for instance. Dangerous fools.

But...
The bowling alley had their own civilians for waxing.
The clothing store had their own civilians for inventory.
Transpotation SQ handled the bus driving duties.

Now...if you were at a remote base somewhere, with limited civilian
personnel...things may be different.

During my commanders welcome meeting in his office, we all sat at
his table and told him he had a terrible moral problem. I wasn't there
a week, and I found the place a disaster. He looked us square in the
face and said he will make sure all of us would wish we were never
born, jumped-up and yelled to get the hell out of his office. He
lasted another month before the Colonel got rid of him, but the
damage was done, and we were just enlisted people, so suck it up.

Bad commanders exist. Eventually, they either leave or change. Bad managers
in cubeland exist. And they are harder to get rid of.


Let's acknowledge first, that most C.O.s deal through chain of
command. Their attitudes, information, and reactions are filtered
through levels of junior officers and NCOs. There are some
organizations in which the C.O. does deal with the lowest ranks, but
in most units, there are several levels. Or, maybe you didn't mean
C.O., but rather simply meant "supervisor"--then you've still got to
deal with different ages, levels of maturity, and degrees of technical
expertise.

In my example above, the higher enlisted ranks were almost never to
be found. The commander had no eyes and ears. I agree with you
on this.

"I need 5 guys for ...."
Are you, as the NCOIC or OIC going to go? Or do you get 5 airmen?


All I have to do is go into a squadron and look at the detail list, or
watch
all the enlisted troops picking up trash with their garbage bags dragging
behind them to know that nothing has changed.

Sure, some guys get tasked to police up an area. But it isn't nearly as
common (in recent years) as you make it out to be.

Pete

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:19:21 -0600, "D. Strang"
wrote:

All I have to do is go into a squadron and look at the detail list, or watch
all the enlisted troops picking up trash with their garbage bags dragging
behind them to know that nothing has changed.


I don't know where and when you served, but clearly you've got a
wealth of experiences. I can only say that during my 23 years with the
company I seldom saw that sort of thing going on. That included
stateside TAC and ATC (plus MAJCOM), PACAF two tours in combat ops,
and USAFE (operational and Hq).

Throughout, there was mutual respect for the support troops and high
morale. Long hours and harsh working conditions occasionally, but
there was always a strong sense of mission and a keen awareness that
it was the whole team that made it happen.

My final tour on active duty was Air Liaison Officer with the 4th ID
(mech), where I got some insight into Army operations. The differences
in numbers (and hence ratios) of officer to enlisted were very
apparent. Clearly there was more room for the sort of thing you
describe on the green side of the house, but the successful units
maintained the same sort of relationships that I saw on the blue side.

The days of traditional European conscript (18th/19th Century) "rank &
file" versus officer corps--"keep a stiff upper lip" seem pretty much
over.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Steven Wagner" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer
programmers,
enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
would
they have to go through the entire course of technical training that
somebody
with no experience in the skill would have to go through?

Yes. Nowadays, tech school is like extended Basic. You're still learning how
to be in the USAF, along with the bare bones basics of your future job..
Along with how the AF does things, from a/c maintenance to programming.

Of which I did both.

There used to be a thing known as Direct Duty Assignment, but evidently the
last person to do such graduated BMT in March 1994.

"17 Mar 94
As a part of the Year of Training initiative, all new recruits hd to attend
technical training school immediately following basic military training. The
last recruit to bypass technical training and receive a direct duty
assignment graduated from BMT on this date"

http://www.aetc.randolph.af.mil/ho/atc90s.htm

Pete

In article ,
"Pete" wrote:

Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer
programmers,
enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
would
they have to go through the entire course of technical training that
somebody
with no experience in the skill would have to go through?

Yes. Nowadays, tech school is like extended Basic. You're still learning how
to be in the USAF, along with the bare bones basics of your future job..
Along with how the AF does things, from a/c maintenance to programming.

Of which I did both.

There used to be a thing known as Direct Duty Assignment, but evidently the
last person to do such graduated BMT in March 1994.


What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?
Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote


What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?

I googled for "Direct Duty Assignment" and found a few references. Mostly
admin type jobs, it seems. A few skill jobs, like in CE.
http://www.afrc.af.mil/908aw/ccmbio.htm
"..graduated from Basic Training at Lackland AFB and received a direct duty
assignment to the 306 Civil Engineering Squadron, McCoy AFB, Florida, and
was assigned to the pavements section."

Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

An Army 11B *is* a skill to be learned. More than just walking around in the
woods with a gun.

Pete

In article ,
"Pete" wrote:

What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?

I googled for "Direct Duty Assignment" and found a few references. Mostly
admin type jobs, it seems. A few skill jobs, like in CE.
http://www.afrc.af.mil/908aw/ccmbio.htm
"..graduated from Basic Training at Lackland AFB and received a direct duty
assignment to the 306 Civil Engineering Squadron, McCoy AFB, Florida, and
was assigned to the pavements section."

Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

An Army 11B *is* a skill to be learned. More than just walking around in the
woods with a gun.


That's why they get at least some schooling.


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote

What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?
Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

There used to be a field for vehicle operators. Today it's just an additional
duty.

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:20:41 -0700, Ed Rasimus
disturbed the phosphur particles on my
screen with the following:


Show me a unit which routinely demeans the enlisted personnel without respect
for their capabilities and I'll show you a failed unit.

Fighter Squadron 33, Naval Air Station, Oceana, Virginia 1958.

"Steven Wagner" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer
programmers,
enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
would
they have to go through the entire course of technical training that
somebody
with no experience in the skill would have to go through?

Thanks.

I do not know the current practice but when I enlisted in the USAF in 1955 I
made sure I took some documentation of a skill with me. I did not qualify
for the USAF tech school but was offered a chance to take a Bypass Test,
scored a record score and was awarded a three level AFSC during basic
training.

This also cost me extra weeks at Sampson AFB as they had to request an
assignment for me as the normal ones were for airmen going to Tech School or
directed OJT slots. They had nothing for people graduating with a skill.

Regards,

Tex

Once upon a time in the blurry past, I had a young man working for me who had
completed apprenticeship training as an asbestos worker (read "insulator"),
really skilled, leader of men, I trusted him wiyj 20 man crews $400,000
(equivalent to $5 plus million in today's market) projects then. Really good
troop! He knew his draft number was coming so he enlistedm "with civilian
acquired skill". Army tried to make him a cook, AF tried to make him an AP,
Navy at least put him in steam power, reasonably close to his civilian learned
skill.
He finally retired from the Naval Reserve as a Commander some twenty three
years later.
Needs of the service, ya know.

Rick
MFE
N1535