hi alt oxygen

(QDurham) wrote:

There is a 'cheat' where one can got to 12 for 30 minutes. But the
brain needs O2 to function properly. With hard training one can
function adequately at higher altitudes.

Pensacola. Low pressure tank. 30,000 feet pressure. Instructor asks for
volunteer. (I tend to do dumb things) I said OK. "Please take this pencil
and write your name on this clipboard." "How many times?" "Don't worry. I'll
tell you when to stop."

Off comes mask. I write and I write and at the 4th perfect signature I stop --
wondering why am I doing this. "Hell, I can do this for the rest of my life."
(30,00 feet. Yeah) Instructor slams mask back on. My vision instantly
changed from looking down a soda straw to wide open, COLOR!, side vision. Wow!
Last signature was a straight line. (Hmmmm. Looked OK at the time.)

At 30K, one has about 4 seconds of useful consciousness -- unless one holds
one's breath. That may net one a couple of seconds more. No pain. No strain.
Quite pleasant. Been there. Done that. Fast and almost fun.

Humans need a constant supply of oxygen and we store almost none. Lack of
oxygen doesn't hurt. What hurts and gives the feeling of strangulation is an
overabundance of carbon dioxide. Want to know what too much CO2 feels like?
Hold your breath for 3-4 minutes.

Throw in a little exhaust gas and the ceiling easily drops to 20K or lower.

Quent

Yes, this is exactly correct...the Canadian Armed Forces has this
tank setup in Trenton Ontario. The short course is called HAI for
'high altitude indoctrination' and the effects are as Quent
mentions.

In addition to what he says the effects of hypoxia onset versus
altitude is very un linear. The armed Forces mandate oxygen use
above 10,000 ft but you can easily survive for very long periods
at 20,000 while sitting quietly (I've done it) but increase this
altitude by only slightly and bad things start to happen rapidly,
right down to several seconds of consciousness at 30k.
--

-Gord.

Subject: hi alt oxygen
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 3/11/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 8o91509jd5cda3kuuemn759

n addition to what he says the effects of hypoxia onset versus
altitude is very un linear. The armed Forces mandate oxygen use
above 10,000 ft but you can easily survive for very long periods
at 20,000 while sitting quietly (I've done it) but increase this

Sure. But you can't operate a bombsight with any degree of accuracy under those
conditions. Keep your mask on. And at night from the ground up.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

ubject: Chamber Ride was: hi alt oxygen
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 3/11/04 9:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Altitude Chamber training or refresher class. Anyone have a problem with
theirs?

My only "problem" was the green tint to the atmosphere and the insane
giggling
of the older O-4 thru O-6 and the horrified looks of the newer Flight
Nurse
trainees.
I had a tough time keeping a straight face and the more you laugh the
more
green air you inhale.
My last refresher was at Offut and the class was about equally split
between
old farts and new farts, with a few of us mid level farts thrown in the
mix.

Rick
MFE


One chamber ride I will never forget is the gas chamber ride. Phosgene,
Mustard
and tear gasses. Unforgettable


Tear gasses, sure. But mustard and phosgene? Mustard, when purified
(agent HD rather than H) often has no smell at all. You don't notice
anything until the burns start appearing. Phosgene really has no
acceptable safety limit that could be used for training.

By WWII, phosgene wasn't widely accepted as a chemical agent. Cyanogen
or cyanogen chloride would have been far more likely to have been used
as quick-casualty agents. Again, no practical safe limit.

Subject: Chamber Ride was: hi alt oxygen
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 3/11/04 12:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

ubject: Chamber Ride was: hi alt oxygen
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 3/11/04 9:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Altitude Chamber training or refresher class. Anyone have a problem with
theirs?

My only "problem" was the green tint to the atmosphere and the insane
giggling
of the older O-4 thru O-6 and the horrified looks of the newer Flight
Nurse
trainees.
I had a tough time keeping a straight face and the more you laugh the
more
green air you inhale.
My last refresher was at Offut and the class was about equally split
between
old farts and new farts, with a few of us mid level farts thrown in the
mix.

Rick
MFE


One chamber ride I will never forget is the gas chamber ride. Phosgene,
Mustard
and tear gasses. Unforgettable


Tear gasses, sure. But mustard and phosgene? Mustard, when purified
(agent HD rather than H) often has no smell at all. You don't notice
anything until the burns start appearing. Phosgene really has no
acceptable safety limit that could be used for training.

By WWII, phosgene wasn't widely accepted as a chemical agent. Cyanogen
or cyanogen chloride would have been far more likely to have been used
as quick-casualty agents. Again, no practical safe limit.


Mustard had an acrid smell. Phosgene had the smell; of new mown hay. At leas
that is the way they were described to us before we went into the chamber. But
those of us who were city boys had no idea of what new mown hay smelled like.
But we found out soon enough.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"M. J. Powell" wrote:

In message , Guy Alcala
writes

snip

The difference being the rate at which you ascend from lower altitudes,
although the military's 10,000 foot rule seems very conservativ. IIRR,
even the FAA allows pilots to fly between 12,500 and 14,000 ft. for 1/2 an
hour without O2, and pax can do it indefinitely. Pity the poor fighter
pilots in WW1, who used to climb up to 17-20,000 feet without O2 and
patrol there for an hour or so in open, unheated cockpits. And suffered
massive headaches as a result.

Not to mention the castor oil...

IIRR, that mainly resulted in nausea and diarrhea, treated with copious amounts
of alcohol.

Guy

In article , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: hi alt oxygen
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 3/11/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 8o91509jd5cda3kuuemn759

n addition to what he says the effects of hypoxia onset versus
altitude is very un linear. The armed Forces mandate oxygen use
above 10,000 ft but you can easily survive for very long periods
at 20,000 while sitting quietly (I've done it) but increase this

Sure. But you can't operate a bombsight with any degree of accuracy under those
conditions. Keep your mask on. And at night from the ground up.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Just out of interest, Art, did you ever have to use the A-7 mask (and
presumably a throat mike?) or was the A-14 in universal use while you
were operational?

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Subject: hi alt oxygen
From: Dave Eadsforth
Date: 3/11/04 3:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: hi alt oxygen
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 3/11/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 8o91509jd5cda3kuuemn759

n addition to what he says the effects of hypoxia onset versus
altitude is very un linear. The armed Forces mandate oxygen use
above 10,000 ft but you can easily survive for very long periods
at 20,000 while sitting quietly (I've done it) but increase this

Sure. But you can't operate a bombsight with any degree of accuracy under
those
conditions. Keep your mask on. And at night from the ground up.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Just out of interest, Art, did you ever have to use the A-7 mask (and
presumably a throat mike?) or was the A-14 in universal use while you
were operational?

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth


In training at Cadet school we used a mask that had a rubber bag hannging down.
We called it a spit bag. Every few minutes you had to pull the plug from the
bottom of the bag and drain out the saliva. In cold weather it froze and
couldn't be drained. Once we graduated and went to transitional we were used
low pressure demand masks. More comfortable. Besides those early high pressure
systems were given to blowing up if even a minute amount of grease came in
contactwith the oxygen. It was a 1,000 lb/sq/ inch sytem., The later demand
masks worked on a low pressure system and were much safer as well as more
comfortable. Sorry.I don't remember the designations.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

More trivia on flight and oxygen:
1) the F102 always gave us 100%- there was no diluter function. Some
ground-pounding designer made the decision we'd always be wearing
pressure suits to go after those high-altitude bombers. As it turned
out it generally took a direct order to get a pilot airborne in the
old skin-tight MC-3&4 partial pressure suits, because they were very
unconfortable and visual lookout was definitely impaired because you
had to use your free hand to shove your head around to look to each
side. Well, one of our guys came down with his lower face singed -
claimed the oxygen had flamed his moustache wax. Good story but what
had reallyy happened was that he forgot to shut off his oxygen when he
lit a cigarette . . .speaking of p-suits I always had a good laugh
when I saw the Russky pics of their MiG21 pilots walking along in
p-suits that looked jusy like our partial pressure suits. Their flight
surgeons were a lot more involved in daily activities than ours -
thank God.
Next story - this crusty old WW2 pilot and I were off to Tyndall from
RG in a T33 - the wx down there was DS and we were at about 37000 to
save enough fuel for an alternate. He tried to light a cig but it
wouldn't take - the next hour he spent whining at me because I
wouldn't descend so he could grab a smoke.
Bends - we used to get bubbles under our skin in the older T33s
because the pressurization was so weak. Felt like little bugs crawling
under the skin (mobile chiggers?). So before a p-suit flight we
normally prebreathed 100% O2 for 30 minutes to flush out the N2 to
minimize the chance of getting bends. We were on another U2 intercept
mission when my squadron mate stopped the flightline trolley, opened
up his faceplate, threw up, wiped off his lips, closed the faceplate
and motioned to the young, now wide-eyed, airman driver to press on.
Hangovers and p-suits don't really go together. He still hacked the
mission, though.
Speaking of nicotine fits - I had a friend who used to chew tobacco in
a 104 - he kept a Prince Albert can in his Gsuit pocket to catch the
spit. Never was able to bounce him at just the right time, though.
Being a non-smoker I just don't understand guys like that.
As for the Rocky Mountains, when we get flatlanders up here for a
visit and take them for a drive up over Trail Ridge road - peak
altitude about 12,200, they usually doze off because they won't
breathe (pant) enough. Both the Pikes Peak and Mt. Evans roads will
let you drive up over 14,000.
Walt BJ

In article , WaltBJ
writes
More trivia on flight and oxygen:

SNIP of fascinating trivia about high altitude breathing - more welcome
anytime!

breathe (pant) enough. Both the Pikes Peak and Mt. Evans roads will
let you drive up over 14,000.
Walt BJ

I went to Pike's Peak many years ago and was told that the engines of
the VW we were trucked in had special aspiration arrangements - no
surprise there.

But the people didn't have the same arrangements! Soon after we
arrived, some kids started running around and throwing snowballs fairly
indiscriminately. But one guy just smiled and said 'Don't worry, folks,
it won't last long'. And how true, within a minute the kids were
horizontal... :-)

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

On 11 Mar 2004 19:31:57 -0800, (WaltBJ) wrote:

MC-3&4 partial pressure suits, because they were very
unconfortable and visual lookout was definitely impaired because you
had to use your free hand to shove your head around to look to each
side.

Good grief!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

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