In the event the F-22 is cancelled which would be the best way to go? (Talk about opening a can of worms :-) )

As much as I think it would be a bad idea to cancel the F-22 I have to
admit that the perception is that it's iffy as far as hitting it's
deadlines. But also from what I've read it seems that most of the
problems are with software and avionics and that the airframe/engine
combination is relatively sound and hasn't had anything more extreme
than any other new aircraft as far as surprises go. So the question is
if the software and avionics ultimately drag it down what would be the
best alternative?

1. Would it be possible to completely ****-can the avionics and
software and use the same as is going to be used in the F-35? I mean
IDENTICAL other than the differences to deal with the different flight
characteristics of the F-22?

2. Stuff the latest generation Strike Eagle avionics into an
F-22/F-119 combo as a stopgap until you could do #1? It would
essentially BE a faster, stealthy F-15.

3. Can the F-22 entirely which would mean you flushed billions away
and got nothing for it and then buy F-15Ks with AESA APG-63s as a
stopgap until the F-35 is ready?

4. *shudder* buy "Super"Hornets for the Air Force?

5. Buy foreign?


5 seems like a nonstarter

I would HOPE 4 would be a nonstarter.

IMO 3 would be most likely but then in the end you end up with an
underpowered aircraft that wasn't designed for air-to-air as it's
primary role.

2. Seems like it would cost as much or more than just working out the
current problems.

1 Would not only likely be MORE expensive since you's REALLY be
stretching out the purchase of F-22 airframes but you'd have gone
something like 20 years between prototype flight and inservice.



Anyway ALL opinions welcome but let's all try to keep the
flamethrowers at home.

"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
...
1. Would it be possible to completely ****-can the avionics and
software and use the same as is going to be used in the F-35? I mean
IDENTICAL other than the differences to deal with the different flight
characteristics of the F-22?

No idea, really...perhaps it would be possible, but would it save anything?

2. Stuff the latest generation Strike Eagle avionics into an
F-22/F-119 combo as a stopgap until you could do #1? It would
essentially BE a faster, stealthy F-15.

I'm not sure you can just insert F119 to F-15. Very costly anyway. However
if F-22 is canned, some sort of Eagle upgrade is obvious.

3. Can the F-22 entirely which would mean you flushed billions away
and got nothing for it and then buy F-15Ks with AESA APG-63s as a
stopgap until the F-35 is ready?

IF F-35 ever gets ready...and it can't really replace F-22 in any case.
Unless given more money...

4. *shudder* buy "Super"Hornets for the Air Force?

I thought the idea was to get *better* planes than the current inservice
ones?

5. Buy foreign?

Bwuhaha!

I'm on record saying in 1997 or so that cancelling F-22 would be
gigantically stupid because the program is too far advanced. Cancelling it
now would be...well, something.

1. Would it be possible to completely ****-can the avionics and
software and use the same as is going to be used in the F-35? I mean
IDENTICAL other than the differences to deal with the different flight
characteristics of the F-22?

That's not too far from the truth.... but has to be managed in such a
way as to give the impression is a evolutionary upgrade to the F-22
while benefiting the JSF.



2. Stuff the latest generation Strike Eagle avionics into an
F-22/F-119 combo as a stopgap until you could do #1? It would
essentially BE a faster, stealthy F-15.

Not a hope.


3. Can the F-22 entirely which would mean you flushed billions away
and got nothing for it and then buy F-15Ks with AESA APG-63s as a
stopgap until the F-35 is ready?

Its a possibility which is increasing exponentially with development
time, there are many examples of 'how good it is' news pieces being
posted by the marketing bods, this tends to happen during times of
threat to programs.

IF F-35 ever gets ready...and it can't really replace F-22 in any case.
Unless given more money...

There's several tens of billion dollars if the F-22 is cancelled,
the JSF price just took another hike, I'm on the record as saying
something's got to give as the numbers don't stack up, Comanche was
just a starter, expect another big ticket item (or two) to fall.



4. *shudder* buy "Super"Hornets for the Air Force?


Not a hope.


5. Buy foreign?

Not a hope, but out of interest - if forced to which would the US
prefer Typhoon, Rafale, or a Russian jobbie.

I'm on record saying in 1997 or so that cancelling F-22 would be
gigantically stupid because the program is too far advanced. Cancelling it
now would be...well, something.

Its only development money:-) , hopefully the JSF will be better
managed, canceling the F-22 only means a red face for the US, but its
the lengths they will go to avoid canceling it, that's the real
question, if the reports of the F-22 being a bit of a lemon are true
how far will they go to defend it.

Cheers


John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

"John Cook" a écrit dans le message de
...

5. Buy foreign?

Not a hope, but out of interest - if forced to which would the US
prefer Typhoon, Rafale, or a Russian jobbie.


At the moment, Rafale is the only true modern high efficient mutirole
aircraft !
Typhoon has never been designed to carry out air to ground missions.
Russian are nice looking but ...

Well, will F35 do the job ?

"mozzer" wrote in message
...

"John Cook" a écrit dans le message de
...

5. Buy foreign?

Not a hope, but out of interest - if forced to which would the US
prefer Typhoon, Rafale, or a Russian jobbie.


At the moment, Rafale is the only true modern high efficient mutirole
aircraft !
Typhoon has never been designed to carry out air to ground missions.
Russian are nice looking but ...

If the Russians raise their MTBF numbers with an electric FCS they will be
right back in it.

Well, will F35 do the job ?

Probably. It all depends on how well the program migrated from mil-spec to
the RPL model and how well problems down flow are mitigated. Otherwise the
F-35 is as screwed as the F-22.

Some F-15 life extension will be necessary during the gap, or F-18s for the
USAF.

"mozzer" wrote in message
...

"John Cook" a écrit dans le message de
...

5. Buy foreign?

Not a hope, but out of interest - if forced to which would the US
prefer Typhoon, Rafale, or a Russian jobbie.


At the moment, Rafale is the only true modern high efficient mutirole
aircraft !

Have they produced any multi-role versions yet? Last I heard the only ones
in service are the M's, which were dedicated exclusively to air-to-air and
had no ground attack capability whatsoever.

Brooks

Typhoon has never been designed to carry out air to ground missions.
Russian are nice looking but ...

Well, will F35 do the job ?

On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:12:16 +0300, "Yama"
wrote:


"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
.. .
1. Would it be possible to completely ****-can the avionics and
software and use the same as is going to be used in the F-35? I mean
IDENTICAL other than the differences to deal with the different flight
characteristics of the F-22?

No idea, really...perhaps it would be possible, but would it save anything?

2. Stuff the latest generation Strike Eagle avionics into an
F-22/F-119 combo as a stopgap until you could do #1? It would
essentially BE a faster, stealthy F-15.


I'm not sure you can just insert F119 to F-15. Very costly anyway. However
if F-22 is canned, some sort of Eagle upgrade is obvious.

That's not what I said. Gut the F-22 of electronics and use Strike
Eagle avionics in an F-22 engine/airframe. Think an F-22 that is a
Strike Eagle under the skin.

LOL!! Looks like you're the one who sucked down the can of worms.
That post has "Tarver bait" written all over it. And like the
predictable troll you are you rose to the occassion and showed us all
what a class act you are. Unable to keep himself from flamming he had
to start a thread dedicated to it. Keep up the good work Johnny boy.

5. Buy foreign?

Not a hope, but out of interest - if forced to which would the US
prefer Typhoon, Rafale, or a Russian jobbie.


Out of those options IMO since none of them are stealth aircraft the
best way to go would be to start with a gutted Su-37 and stuff it with
American engines, avionics and weapons but chances are even if the US
could make itself do that, by the time they were happy with the
aircraft it would be damn near as expensive as the F-22.


Ideally the best replacement would have been new build Tomcat 21s but
there is no chance of that now.

Typhoons and Rafales seem like nonstarters for the simple reason that
whatever aircraft is chosen would also do air to ground. Let's see
you hang a 5000lb PGM or two on either of those aircraft. Sure you
can go on about small bombs etc. but it's tough to duplicate the
flexibility of being able to carry a heavy load.

In article , Scott Ferrin
wrote:

1. Would it be possible to completely ****-can the avionics and
software and use the same as is going to be used in the F-35? I mean
IDENTICAL other than the differences to deal with the different flight
characteristics of the F-22?

Not in any near-term timeframe. Also, since the airframes are so different
the electronics would have to be re-packaged in most cases.
Plus the airframes would have to be completely re-wired: $$$


2. Stuff the latest generation Strike Eagle avionics into an
F-22/F-119 combo as a stopgap until you could do #1? It would
essentially BE a faster, stealthy F-15.

Nearer term, but the F-15 uses a federated architecture.
Since the airframes are so different
the electronics would have to be re-packaged in most cases.
Plus the airframes would have to be completely re-wired: $$$


3. Can the F-22 entirely which would mean you flushed billions away
and got nothing for it and then buy F-15Ks with AESA APG-63s as a
stopgap until the F-35 is ready?

USAF are going to buy more of something anyway, this is the most likely
scenario. Not K's for sure. More F-16 Block 50's or more F-15's are pretty
much a sure thing regardless of what happens with F-22 and F-35.


4. *shudder* buy "Super"Hornets for the Air Force?

And start a whole new logistics tail? Not bloody likely.


5. Buy foreign?

See #4

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur