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Oh, I dunno, you don't win races by blowing up engines - you have to finish.

Most of what goes into race prepping an engine is beefing it up so it lasts
the whole race at extreme power output. Reduce power to a more reasonable
level and a race engines will last practically forever. The current crop of
"Sport Touring" motorcycles are just that - de-tuned racers. Having one
wear out or fail in service is almost unheard of.

The same tricks used to increase reliability of a race engine can be used to
increase reliability even further in normal use. DLC's increase reliability
not power.

Bill Daniels


"Scott" wrote in message
news
Certified? Not in a "homebuilt" group!

However, that said, I think you are right...reliability is a relatively
unknown word in racing engine circles I suspect...

I'm still waiting for the space shuttles to be reitred so I's can get one
of their engines as surplus and bolt it on my Corben :O

Scott


Maxwell wrote:
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

I've been following the development of Diamond-Like Coatings (DLC's) for
a decade of so. These are vapor deposited coatings of carbon in diamond
crystal form applied directly to engine parts. The motorcycle racers
have exploited this technology for about an 8% increase in HP through
reduction in internal friction.

The stuff works on any internal surface where friction and wear is a
problem. Lycoming cams and mushroom tappets seem like a natural
aplication. The costs have come down to where a few hundred dollars of
coating work is enough for an engine. However, I haven't heard of the
technology being applied to aviation piston engines.



I have always wondered why the aviation community hasn't utilized more of
lessons learned from the racing communities. Granted, we have to deal
with certified products and procedures in most cases, and reliability
should always take a back seat to overall power output. But so much has
been learned from all forms of racing that deals strictly with
reliability and efficency, that is surprises me so little of it makes it
to GA.



--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Well, maybe reliability for one or two races might be thought about. I
guess what I was alluding to was that I wouldn't think an engine built for
racing would have a high TBO compared to our slow turning tractor engines
(Lycoming, Continental, etc.).

Scott



That's true with many of the high performance techniques. Mult-angle valve
jobs, high lift and overlap cams, and high compression are good examples.
But many other techniques would do just the opposite. Precision balancing,
matching rod and piston lengths and weights, equalzing combustion chambers,
tuned exhaust systems and alike, will afford better performance and a much
smoother running engine. Not to mention friction reducing coatings mentioned
above. Dry sump oil systems and modifications to improve flow in the
lubrication system would be applicable too. Most of these items are too
expensive for a routine automotive overhaul, but begin to look much more
affordable for something as important and often as expensive aviation
overhaul.

On Apr 21, 3:20 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message

.. .

Well, maybe reliability for one or two races might be thought about. I
guess what I was alluding to was that I wouldn't think an engine built for
racing would have a high TBO compared to our slow turning tractor engines
(Lycoming, Continental, etc.).

Scott

That's true with many of the high performance techniques. Mult-angle valve
jobs, high lift and overlap cams, and high compression are good examples.
But many other techniques would do just the opposite. Precision balancing,
matching rod and piston lengths and weights, equalzing combustion chambers,
tuned exhaust systems and alike, will afford better performance and a much
smoother running engine. Not to mention friction reducing coatings mentioned
above. Dry sump oil systems and modifications to improve flow in the
lubrication system would be applicable too. Most of these items are too
expensive for a routine automotive overhaul, but begin to look much more
affordable for something as important and often as expensive aviation
overhaul.

Well thought out ideas. My experimental is running a detuned V-8 and
proving that theory daily..


Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

Bill Daniels wrote:
Oh, I dunno, you don't win races by blowing up engines - you have to finish.

Most of what goes into race prepping an engine is beefing it up so it lasts
the whole race at extreme power output. Reduce power to a more reasonable
level and a race engines will last practically forever. The current crop of
"Sport Touring" motorcycles are just that - de-tuned racers. Having one
wear out or fail in service is almost unheard of.

The same tricks used to increase reliability of a race engine can be used to
increase reliability even further in normal use. DLC's increase reliability
not power.

Bill Daniels

Hey, Wot's a DLC???(please)Jerry


"Scott" wrote in message
news
Certified? Not in a "homebuilt" group!

However, that said, I think you are right...reliability is a relatively
unknown word in racing engine circles I suspect...

I'm still waiting for the space shuttles to be reitred so I's can get one
of their engines as surplus and bolt it on my Corben :O

Scott


Maxwell wrote:
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

I've been following the development of Diamond-Like Coatings (DLC's) for
a decade of so. These are vapor deposited coatings of carbon in diamond
crystal form applied directly to engine parts. The motorcycle racers
have exploited this technology for about an 8% increase in HP through
reduction in internal friction.

The stuff works on any internal surface where friction and wear is a
problem. Lycoming cams and mushroom tappets seem like a natural
aplication. The costs have come down to where a few hundred dollars of
coating work is enough for an engine. However, I haven't heard of the
technology being applied to aviation piston engines.


I have always wondered why the aviation community hasn't utilized more of
lessons learned from the racing communities. Granted, we have to deal
with certified products and procedures in most cases, and reliability
should always take a back seat to overall power output. But so much has
been learned from all forms of racing that deals strictly with
reliability and efficency, that is surprises me so little of it makes it
to GA.


--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Bill Daniels wrote:
Oh, I dunno, you don't win races by blowing up engines - you have to finish.

Most of what goes into race prepping an engine is beefing it up so it lasts
the whole race at extreme power output. Reduce power to a more reasonable
level and a race engines will last practically forever. The current crop of
"Sport Touring" motorcycles are just that - de-tuned racers. Having one
wear out or fail in service is almost unheard of.

The same tricks used to increase reliability of a race engine can be used to
increase reliability even further in normal use. DLC's increase reliability
not power. ---OK I got it Diamond like Coatings--sorry 'bout dat..Jerry

Bill Daniels


"Scott" wrote in message
news
Certified? Not in a "homebuilt" group!

However, that said, I think you are right...reliability is a relatively
unknown word in racing engine circles I suspect...

I'm still waiting for the space shuttles to be reitred so I's can get one
of their engines as surplus and bolt it on my Corben :O

Scott


Maxwell wrote:
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

I've been following the development of Diamond-Like Coatings (DLC's) for
a decade of so. These are vapor deposited coatings of carbon in diamond
crystal form applied directly to engine parts. The motorcycle racers
have exploited this technology for about an 8% increase in HP through
reduction in internal friction.

The stuff works on any internal surface where friction and wear is a
problem. Lycoming cams and mushroom tappets seem like a natural
aplication. The costs have come down to where a few hundred dollars of
coating work is enough for an engine. However, I haven't heard of the
technology being applied to aviation piston engines.


I have always wondered why the aviation community hasn't utilized more of
lessons learned from the racing communities. Granted, we have to deal
with certified products and procedures in most cases, and reliability
should always take a back seat to overall power output. But so much has
been learned from all forms of racing that deals strictly with
reliability and efficency, that is surprises me so little of it makes it
to GA.


--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Read below in earlier post.

"Jerry Wass" wrote in message
. net...
Bill Daniels wrote:
Oh, I dunno, you don't win races by blowing up engines - you have to
finish.

Most of what goes into race prepping an engine is beefing it up so it
lasts the whole race at extreme power output. Reduce power to a more
reasonable level and a race engines will last practically forever. The
current crop of "Sport Touring" motorcycles are just that - de-tuned
racers. Having one wear out or fail in service is almost unheard of.

The same tricks used to increase reliability of a race engine can be used
to increase reliability even further in normal use. DLC's increase
reliability not power.

Bill Daniels

Hey, Wot's a DLC???(please)Jerry


"Scott" wrote in message
news
Certified? Not in a "homebuilt" group!

However, that said, I think you are right...reliability is a relatively
unknown word in racing engine circles I suspect...

I'm still waiting for the space shuttles to be reitred so I's can get
one of their engines as surplus and bolt it on my Corben :O

Scott


Maxwell wrote:
"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

I've been following the development of Diamond-Like Coatings (DLC's)
for a decade of so. These are vapor deposited coatings of carbon in
diamond crystal form applied directly to engine parts. The motorcycle
racers have exploited this technology for about an 8% increase in HP
through reduction in internal friction.

The stuff works on any internal surface where friction and wear is a
problem. Lycoming cams and mushroom tappets seem like a natural
aplication. The costs have come down to where a few hundred dollars of
coating work is enough for an engine. However, I haven't heard of the
technology being applied to aviation piston engines.


I have always wondered why the aviation community hasn't utilized more
of lessons learned from the racing communities. Granted, we have to
deal with certified products and procedures in most cases, and
reliability should always take a back seat to overall power output. But
so much has been learned from all forms of racing that deals strictly
with reliability and efficency, that is surprises me so little of it
makes it to GA.


--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:08:22 GMT, Jerry Wass
wrote:

Bill Daniels wrote:
Oh, I dunno, you don't win races by blowing up engines - you have to
finish.

In th '50s my dad raced Forumula 3 cars (on methanol ditto fluid, but
that's another story.)

One race he won, he didn't take a victory lap, he just pulled into the
winners circle. When my mom asked him why he said "6 lap race, 6 lap
engine."

I can remember a not to be named but once well known Formula 1 air race guy
thinking out loud as follows ...

"Cooling drag is about 40% of my total drag on the airplane. The average
air race only lasts about 15 minutes. I think an O-200 will run at least 15
minutes without cooling before it siezes. What will happen if we eliminate
the cooling completely?"

Some of the things we consider for racing advantage are not altogether
practical on an everyday non-racing machine! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Pinckneyville rec.aviation flyin May 18,19, 20. FAQ at
http://www.ousterhout.net/pjy-faq.html

Highflyer wrote:
"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:08:22 GMT, Jerry Wass
wrote:


Bill Daniels wrote:

Oh, I dunno, you don't win races by blowing up engines - you have to
finish.

In th '50s my dad raced Forumula 3 cars (on methanol ditto fluid, but
that's another story.)

One race he won, he didn't take a victory lap, he just pulled into the
winners circle. When my mom asked him why he said "6 lap race, 6 lap
engine."


I can remember a not to be named but once well known Formula 1 air race guy
thinking out loud as follows ...

"Cooling drag is about 40% of my total drag on the airplane. The average
air race only lasts about 15 minutes. I think an O-200 will run at least 15
minutes without cooling before it siezes. What will happen if we eliminate
the cooling completely?"

Some of the things we consider for racing advantage are not altogether
practical on an everyday non-racing machine! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Pinckneyville rec.aviation flyin May 18,19, 20. FAQ at
http://www.ousterhout.net/pjy-faq.html


Sounds Like Tom Cassutt?