Rumsfeld and flying

"Evan Brennan" wrote
"D. Strang" wrote

The war could never have been won, without an invasion of
the North, and the resulting Chinese and Soviet retaliation

Hanoi emphatically rejected the idea of Soviet or Chinese troops
landing in North Vietnam -- they were suspicious of and even reluctant
to accept technicians for training and logistics, although obviously
they had to compromise.

Korea thought the same way. After they lost the war, their
vote didn't count, and the Chicoms came rolling south.

Mike Marron wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

Korean vets were largely forgotten about, but Vietnam vets
were "baby killers", to be shunned.

Such crap. When Dad came back from SEA, he rarely if ever
talked about it, but he was never ever shunned. On the contrary,
friends, relatives, even my junior and high school teachers were
always wanting to pick his brains about his experiences in 'Nam.
And when he was invited to discuss the war and show off his Kodak
slides of his wonderful, uhh, "humanitarian" work helping to [ahem]
"civilize" the local "natives" (via his camouflaged, napalm-laden
Skyraider) it was like the old phrase, "When EF Hutton talks..."

Not crap at all. Here's the context of what I wrote with some
emphasis aids to help you properly understand.

I might add that the treatment of _at least some_ of these Vietnam
vets by their peers (the *important* people in their lives) was
_not always_ as favorable as it ought to have been, especially in
comparison with WWII. Korean vets were largely forgotten about,
but Vietnam vets were "baby killers", to be shunned.

I personally know some people who were rudely treated by females
at dances and parties when their Vietnam vet status was learned.
In the area I live, just having a military style haircut during
the late 60's - early 70's could provoke wry smiles of quiet
ridicule from ones young aged peers.

The stories of returning vets being spit on by fellow 20 year olds
in the airport are probably over blown, but unless you lived in a
small town in midwest during that period, or at least not in a well
entrenched liberal area, a Vietnam vet could have it socially rough,
and might want to just keep his mouth shut about the experience.

Glad your Dad had no problems.


SMH

George Z. Bush wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

George Z. Bush wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:



We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]


Just out of curiosity, when were you there? I spent amost 4 years in Japan,
the last three of which were at Tachikawa.

Yeah I remember you said you were there.

We were in Tachi from ? 1962 through August 1965. My Dad was
LtCol with the 22nd TCS flying the C-124. He retired on coming
home.


After my time. I was there from '51 through '55. I was with the 344th TCS, a
tenant outfit flying C-46s. The rest of my outfit were at Brady, down near
Fukuoka (Kyushu). We moved up to Tachi in Dec. '51, when the 124s were all
grounded due to inflight generator fires. For a while, our 46s and the 54
squadron were all there was available for intra-theater traffic in and out of
Tachi. The 344th deactivated in '55 and became a Flying Training Squadron which
eventually turned our aircraft over to the Japan Air Self Defense Force. We had
the distinction of being among the very few AF people in the world who ever flew
airplanes with the Rising Sun insignia on them.

Sorry if I've rambled.....thought you might be interested in some of the stuff
that happened before your time there.

Not rambling at all! Much appreciated George.

In fact, my Dad flew out of Japan for a while during and after the
Korean War in the time frame you were in and about Tachi. Didn't
know the 124's were around in 1951.

Were there guys flying in the squadron who flew against the Japanese?
I'd presume at least some since this was only 10 years after the war.
Must have been a weird experience for them flying aircraft with the
hinomaru markings.

I'll ask my mother for info as to where my father might have been
flying during the 51-55 time frame. Could be another "small world"
episode in the making!


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Such crap. When Dad came back from SEA, he rarely if ever
talked about it, but he was never ever shunned. On the contrary,
friends, relatives, even my junior and high school teachers were
always wanting to pick his brains about his experiences in 'Nam.
And when he was invited to discuss the war and show off his Kodak
slides of his wonderful, uhh, "humanitarian" work helping to [ahem]
"civilize" the local "natives" (via his camouflaged, napalm-laden
Skyraider) it was like the old phrase, "When EF Hutton talks..."

Not crap at all. Here's the context of what I wrote with some
emphasis aids to help you properly understand.

This response is not only condescending, but it also shows how little
you know about how the VAST MAJORITY of 'Nam era vets were treated
when they returned to the States.

I might add that the treatment of _at least some_ of these Vietnam
vets by their peers (the *important* people in their lives) was
_not always_ as favorable as it ought to have been, especially in
comparison with WWII. Korean vets were largely forgotten about,
but Vietnam vets were "baby killers", to be shunned.

Yeah yeah yeah. Spare us your whining, sniveling, poor,
poor, downtrodden Vietnam vet don't-get-no-respect crapola.

I personally know some people who were rudely treated by females
at dances and parties when their Vietnam vet status was learned.
In the area I live, just having a military style haircut during
the late 60's - early 70's could provoke wry smiles of quiet
ridicule from ones young aged peers.

We resided in both on and off-base housing in some of the larger
metropolitan areas out west (like Denver) and I can tell ya that with
nary a doubt that wherever my ol' man went he was treated with
nothing but respect by civilians from all walks of life. Hell, even
the local longhaired hoods, the dope smoking neighborhood "bad
boys," respected him cos' deep down they knew he was even
BADDER than they (thought) they were -- regardless if he was
strapped into a supersonic jet fighter or pushing the lawnmower
around the yard on a peaceful Saturday morning.

The stories of returning vets being spit on by fellow 20 year olds
in the airport are probably over blown,

Understatement of the decade. Guess ya just had to know my Dad
to know that any 20-year old unfortunate twerp who dared spit on him
would've promptly ended up either A) flat on his back in the back of
an ambulance, or B) DEAD.

but unless you lived in a small town in midwest during that period,
or at least not in a well entrenched liberal area, a Vietnam vet could
have it socially rough, and might want to just keep his mouth shut
about the experience.

Actually, those "well entrenched liberal areas" you speak of were in
the minority and the overwhelming majority of self-respecting Vietnam
vets could go anywhere and say anything he damn pleased be it
Berkley Calif on the left coast or up there in that liberal no-man's
land of New England where you're apparently from.

Glad your Dad had no problems.

Sheeeeiit.

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
Mike Marron wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

Korean vets were largely forgotten about, but Vietnam vets
were "baby killers", to be shunned.

Such crap. When Dad came back from SEA, he rarely if ever
talked about it, but he was never ever shunned. On the contrary,
friends, relatives, even my junior and high school teachers were
always wanting to pick his brains about his experiences in 'Nam.
And when he was invited to discuss the war and show off his Kodak
slides of his wonderful, uhh, "humanitarian" work helping to [ahem]
"civilize" the local "natives" (via his camouflaged, napalm-laden
Skyraider) it was like the old phrase, "When EF Hutton talks..."

Not crap at all. Here's the context of what I wrote with some
emphasis aids to help you properly understand.

I might add that the treatment of _at least some_ of these Vietnam
vets by their peers (the *important* people in their lives) was
_not always_ as favorable as it ought to have been, especially in
comparison with WWII. Korean vets were largely forgotten about,
but Vietnam vets were "baby killers", to be shunned.

I personally know some people who were rudely treated by females
at dances and parties when their Vietnam vet status was learned.
In the area I live, just having a military style haircut during
the late 60's - early 70's could provoke wry smiles of quiet
ridicule from ones young aged peers.

The stories of returning vets being spit on by fellow 20 year olds
in the airport are probably over blown, but unless you lived in a
small town in midwest during that period, or at least not in a well
entrenched liberal area, a Vietnam vet could have it socially rough,
and might want to just keep his mouth shut about the experience.

While he was not spit at, my brother always recalled his return to the
states. He had flown into one of the West coast airports and went into one
of the airport bars to grab a drink. Sat down at a table, and the couple
(youngish) sitting at the next table took in his khaki uniform, gave him a
nasty look, and got up and relocated to a table further away while muttering
insults. Kind of surprised him. But the bartender saw what had happened,
came out and walked over to his table and asked him if he had just gotten
back from Vietnam. Larry said yeah, he had, wondering what *this guy* was
going to have to say about it. The bartender told him (in a loud enough
voice for the couple to hear), "Welcome back, your drinks are on the house,
and don't pay any attention to how *some* people act around here", or words
to that effect. So in one short period of time he experienced both extremes
of treatment.

Brooks


Glad your Dad had no problems.


SMH

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 18:37:53 -0500, Stephen Harding
wrote:

IIRC, the average age of the Vietnam grunt was quite young

25 WWII
21 Korea
19 Vietnam

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
Stephen Harding wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Hush Marron, you never served.

Stephen Harding wrote:
George Z. Bush wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

George Z. Bush wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:



We ended up being stationed in Tachikawa, Japan with him for
3 years and got there via SS President Roosevelt, a President
lines luxury cruise ship (without Dad since he had to fly the
plane there)! My mother should have spoken up much earlier!]


Just out of curiosity, when were you there? I spent amost 4 years in
Japan, the last three of which were at Tachikawa.

Yeah I remember you said you were there.

We were in Tachi from ? 1962 through August 1965. My Dad was
LtCol with the 22nd TCS flying the C-124. He retired on coming
home.


After my time. I was there from '51 through '55. I was with the 344th TCS,
a tenant outfit flying C-46s. The rest of my outfit were at Brady, down near
Fukuoka (Kyushu). We moved up to Tachi in Dec. '51, when the 124s were all
grounded due to inflight generator fires. For a while, our 46s and the 54
squadron were all there was available for intra-theater traffic in and out of
Tachi. The 344th deactivated in '55 and became a Flying Training Squadron
which eventually turned our aircraft over to the Japan Air Self Defense
Force. We had the distinction of being among the very few AF people in the
world who ever flew airplanes with the Rising Sun insignia on them.

Sorry if I've rambled.....thought you might be interested in some of the
stuff that happened before your time there.

Not rambling at all! Much appreciated George.

In fact, my Dad flew out of Japan for a while during and after the
Korean War in the time frame you were in and about Tachi. Didn't
know the 124's were around in 1951.

They certainly were. Originally (before my time), the entire TCWg at Tachi was
a C-54 unit. I think they replaced three 54 squadrons with two 124 units,
obviously with no loss of airlift capability.

I was on base at the time one of the 124s crashed on the outskirts of the base,
with a loss of 129 souls. It was the worst air disaster in Japanese history up
till then. Did you ever hear anything about that one?

Were there guys flying in the squadron who flew against the Japanese?
I'd presume at least some since this was only 10 years after the war.
Must have been a weird experience for them flying aircraft with the
hinomaru markings.

It was weird, whether or not you flew against the Japanese. I know that it felt
awfully strange to me even though I had flown in Italy during WWII. It must
have been more so for those who flew in the Pacific theater.

I'll ask my mother for info as to where my father might have been
flying during the 51-55 time frame. Could be another "small world"
episode in the making!

Please do....who knows where our paths may have crossed?

George Z.

Mike Marron wrote:
Yeah yeah yeah. Spare us your whining, sniveling, poor,
poor, downtrodden Vietnam vet don't-get-no-respect crapola.

Well Mike, I'm glad your Dad didn't catch any grief. But
it did happen, even post-VN. I joined in '77 and caught
far more grief than this green 18-yo country boy expected
or was prepared to receive, this in DC and Maryland.
Especially in airports, when traveling in uniform. Particularly
the first couple of years.

Never had a hint of trouble west of there.


Jeff

George Z. Bush wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote:

I'll ask my mother for info as to where my father might have been
flying during the 51-55 time frame. Could be another "small world"
episode in the making!

Please do....who knows where our paths may have crossed?

Hey George, my mother directed me towards a mug my father
got sometime in 1953-54 for us two (at the time) kids.

It has my name "Steve" on it along with the Japanese equivalent
(I presume) under it. A red seal with a yellow bee in leather
flying helmet and goggles, carrying something with each pair of
its legs, and a star and bar emblem under one of its wings. A
banner under the seal says "21st Troop Carrier Squadron". On the
back a C-54 is pictured with "Bee liners" under it.

He obtained this while stationed at Tachi in the 53-54 time
period, but apparently was also in the various Japanese bases
you mentioned too from time to time.

What I found especially interesting is that he was basically
"commuting to work". Used Japan as a base and running stuff
back and forth (and everywhere) from Korea and I think focused
on helping out the French in Indochina at the time.

Is this what you were doing too? Of course the hop to Korea
from Japan isn't especially large. A bit more of a haul to
Vietnam. I think it's very likely you guys crossed each
others paths at the time.


SMH