FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Peter R." wrote:

I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

Oh man, that is really going to screw up departures at AirVenture!

They get special rules written specifically for the event. Planes two wide
and three deep in position and hold is certainly unique,

Reminds me of a flight I was on last year. I tuned to Camarillo tower
to listen in even though I was a couple thousand feet above his
airspace and I heard this exchange:

PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what
you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on
the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.)
Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123...........and I'm departing to
the right.

I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he
didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing,
presumably he's learned all this stuff... right? And what if he's
already a pilot? Scary stuff.

Also, I was once given a P&H instruction at Santa Monica with a Hawker
jet on short final. I was in a Piper Cherokee with no rear window, and
I declined. Controller had me switch over to ground for a moment to
tell me about how they like to sequence 'em tight on busy days, but
it's my butt on the line, not his. It probably would have been fine 99
times out of 100 with the spacing, but what about that 1 time?

P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an
immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions.
Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the
time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera,
Action the moment the tower tells you to.

IMHO.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL
http://hallert.net/cozy/

Gary Drescher wrote:
..

I've never felt worried about someone landing on me while I'm holding in
position at a controlled airport, but perhaps the risk is more significant
than I'm aware. Have many such collisions actually occurred?

You betcha. As a matter of fact, there IS NO POSITION AND HOLD AT
NIGHT as a result of one such crash.

We were position and holding at Dulles one day (daylight) when the
tower had to send a Gulfstream around because they realized we were
still waiting for clearance. We offered to get off (it wasn't
that close) but they declined.

Gary Drescher wrote:
"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

Hm, I bet a more effective anti-incursion strategy would be to keep using
position-and-hold but require an explicit clearance to taxi across any
runway.

You've always needed an explicit clearance to taxi across runways.
How does that solve position-and-hold issues?

"Ben Hallert" wrote:
I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he
didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing,
presumably he's learned all this stuff... right?

In theory, yes. In practice, if a student is doing his primary training at
an uncontrolled field, it's likely he's not got much experience with
towers. While "position and hold" is probably something he's been taught,
there's a big difference between being taught something and knowing it.

Can you honestly say you've never been confused by something ATC said to
you?

It sounds like the poor pilot did the right thing -- ATC said something he
didn't understand, so he asked for clarification and didn't move until he
got it sorted out.

What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone
touches down
calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern
and more calling in their arrival.
Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off.
As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get in
and out of there.

Dave

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this
spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

--
Peter

I've always had a problem with pilots at non-towered airports self
announcing "position and hold on runway so-and-so". Just as soon get
rid of that one too.NOt possible to see landing traffic once you are
"position and hold".

No such thing as P&H at an uncontrolled airport. The practical effect might
be the same, but the phraseology is wrong.

Bob Gardner

"Dave D" wrote in message
news
What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone
touches down
calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern
and more calling in their arrival.
Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off.
As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get
in and out of there.

Dave

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this
spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

--
Peter

"Dave Stadt" wrote in
et:

They get special rules written specifically for the event. Planes two
wide and three deep in position and hold is certainly unique,


I've seen two deep at HPN, as recently as yesterday morning as a matter
of fact.

If I'm already on the runway with a P&H clearance, I already did the LCA.
BT

P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an
immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions.
Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the
time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera,
Action the moment the tower tells you to.

IMHO.

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL
http://hallert.net/cozy/