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#162
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Letter to the FAA
From Walt's first post under the Tow Upsets thread that started this discussion:
"I have been towing for about two and a half years and have logged over 6,500 tows." Paul A. |
#163
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Quote:
"The current rate is acceptable?" Obviously you are not flying a tow plane with a Schweizer hook and a release handle down on the floor. No, the current rate is NOT acceptable when there is an improved apparatus known to not fail under similar conditions. You are missing my point entirely but that's okay, miss on. Walt |
#164
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Letter to the FAA
On Tuesday, 27 June 2017 02:40:44 UTC+3, wrote:
And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft. Wow, just wow. Acceptable. It is a release design that is clearly not working as it should and easily fixed with little money and effort (relative to costs of flying in general). And you are talking about acceptable rate of dead tow pilots? Seriously? |
#165
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Hope all is well with 711. Two of the great facts of life is that we don't know what we don't know and what you don't know can kill you. When I was asked to tow at SLGP (because the manager and other tow pilot were having coflict with the owner and were leaving) I wasn't quite sure what I was getting into but life is an adventure. I accepted and as you might guess one learns to tow by towing and experiencing all that towing has to offer along the way. I took it easy, kept my head on my shoulders and was fortunate enough to have a couple of hundred tows before I began to realize how badly an out of position glider could affect the tow plane. I had over 6500 tows when I experience two severe kiting events in one week, they happen in the wink of an eye and anything that might interfere with the ability of the tow pilot to release the glider is a major problem. (read my intial post under "Tow Plane Upsets" for a more comprehensive explantion of these two events.) I had read the available information about the Schweizer hook failings and had spoken with other tow pilots about releasing. The best answer I could get was "release early." Well, not all kiting events happen in a slowly evolving manner with the tow pilot watching in the mirror, sometimes they happen in the wink of an eye and you have to be looking forward, left and right much of the time to avoid running into those pesky, white, high performance gliders. The FAA's "review and guidance" appears to be a bit nebulous with a statement in the Advisory Circular # 43.13-2B (or not 2b) that says, "When the glider on tow operates above a certain angle to the tow plane, the ring may slide upwards on the hook causing excessive load on the hook and difficulty in releasing the tow rope ring." I don't know about you but I come from a family of lawyers and can hear the lawyer speak all over that comment. Perhaps what it should say is "when the glider kites on you in the wink of an eye, the SCHWEIZER hook will jam and you are along for the ride until the rope breaks or your ass hits the ground." In my case had the rope not broken or had it broken a second later you would be reading about my death and not hearing from my happy ass on Aviation Banter. The "reasonable guidance" from others thus far seems to include, 1. Not writing the letter to the FAA. 2. Go away and leave the rest of us alone. 3. Compile a list of 337's and STC's and distribute them to those glider operations and clubs who still fly with Schweizer hooks. 4. Other rather simplistic approaches to a complex problem none of which really enhance safety. 5. Did I miss something that made sense, if so let me know. Yes, every tow pilot has the same choice to fly or not to fly and I would be surprised that any tow pilot had not heard about the potential problems with the Schweizer hook. It does not hit home until you find yourself at 300 feet with a student screwing up to the Nth degree while pulling your tail up and to the right, your nose down and to the left and you are trying desparately to release. Interestingly enough, this 15 year old student was described by the most experienced CFIG I know as one who should not be flying. She was soloed by the most inexperienced CFIG I know, go figure. I am trying to compose a letter to the FAA that will not hamper or inhibit the world of soaring. My suggestions will be to at a minimum require the Schweizer hook to be inverted for which there is an STC. My understanding is that the Schweizer hook is limited to towing gliders under 1500 lbs max gross weight and that the rope strength is limited to 1200 lbs. This, if correct would eliminate the Schweizer hook from operations towing the heavier gliders, I am still researching this information. Again, we don't know what we don't know. In addition I feel that it is important to reposition release handles from the floor (on Pawnees) to a position up near the throttle which will give the pilot an extra second or two to react. This has been mandated by the BGA after the deaths of several tow pilots. The basic position I am running into from others on this forum is that there have not been enough deaths to warrant any mandates to switch to Tost. That being said I do have my supporters. Our system does not make it easy to do this research but I have found deaths directly attributable to this condition. I have spoken with someone who knew the pilot who died and whose death fostered the inverted Schweizer hook. Did you read the post from Dave Springford? Thirty years ago their club experienced an accident attributable to a Schweizer hook and changed to Tost with a release up near the throttle. My guess is that the pilot survived and was able to elucidate what happened. The BGA as I believe I have noted before had mandated these changes. Of course I am told that the Canadians and Brits are under different systems and we are under the FAA. I understand this but this does not negate the fact that they recognized a problem and found a solution, we can do the same. As someone who was a second or two from being a statistic I feel compelled to insure that this is well known and that some action be taken. I may not succeed but I will try. If you have any suggestions I would be happy to entertain them. Hoping all your landings are happy ones and I always enjoy reading "711 Reporting." Walt |
#166
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I don't take anything personally, i am not a person. I am all about math and science but I did see the humor in this comment and I am sure that Tom meant it that way. During the Vietnam Police Action my squadron commander once said, we might die today and then again we might not, so let's go fly the mission and see what happens. In our case the most dangerous part of flying was the take off. We were over and above maximum allowable war gross weight for our aircraft, Go AiR FORCE. The second most dangerous part was that inflight box lunch. But we still made the take off and I still ate that lunch and I survived. Have a great day. Walt |
#167
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Letter to the FAA
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 10:53:28 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
Wow, just wow. Acceptable. It is a release design that is clearly not working as it should and easily fixed with little money and effort (relative to costs of flying in general). And you are talking about acceptable rate of dead tow pilots? Seriously? It's obviously acceptable: we keep towing, yes? In many 10s of thousands of tows, my club has had no kiting incidents. No one denies the possibility of an unrecoverable accident and the probability of a Schweizer release failure in this circumstance, but experience shows that these are low probability events. Most of us can distinguish between 1:100,000 and 1:2. My job as the safety guy is to look at the whole picture, not be a one issue zealot. Given limited resources, I'm on the 1:1000 problems first, not the 1:100,000 problems. A Tost release is on my want list, but honestly it is not hard to some up with ten things that are far more important to overall club safety. However, someone posts a 337 for a Tost installation on an L-19, I'll pass the hat, call Portland fsdo and start the ball rolling. It'll be a Winter project and maybe not this Winter if I have to roll my own 337. Evan Ludeman -- Post Mills Soaring |
#168
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Letter to the FAA
I wonder what paperwork is legally required for an inverted Schwiezer tow release (if you already have one installed)? Should be pretty simple and cheap to do the actual change AND get most of the benefit of a Tost release.
This from a guy that lost a friend that was towing in NJ maybe 30 years ago and had a kiting issue while low. The glider pilot was a known squirrel and was not welcome at our field. |
#169
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Letter to the FAA
Hello Walt, First I want to thank you for all the great tows when I was working on my CFIG back in February. If you want to send your letter to the FAA, and it sounds as if you will, you might want to take some precautions. In the 40+ years I flew for a living only 3 or 4 pilots contacted the FAA with safety concerns. To be fair we had other avenues, i.e. Union, etc to air our grievances. But a few did go to the FAA and later had regrets. If they pursue your concerns you may be asked some hard questions. Did you report the incident? To whom did you report the incident? Employer, NASA, FAA, SSA, or anybody else? Did you do a proper preflight of the tow hook? There will be many other questions but I think you get my point. They will be thorough and you will feel as if you are in crosshairs. And you will be in the crosshairs. Before you put a stamp on it get some advice from an aviation lawyer. AOPA has a great legal staff. I would trust their opinion on how to approach the FAA before listening to anyone else. Good luck.
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#170
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Letter to the FAA
On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:55:57 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I wonder what paperwork is legally required for an inverted Schwiezer tow release (if you already have one installed)? Should be pretty simple and cheap to do the actual change AND get most of the benefit of a Tost release. I grok you still need a 337. But anyhow, Schweizer hooks are out of production. So it comes down to some version of the following: Option 1: http://www.wingsunlimitedtowhooks.co...on-bumper.html Option 2: http://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-p...w-release.html This isn't really a tough call, but you do need an approved installation. best, Evan Ludeman / T8 |
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