The effects of Ethanol on...

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

not a pilot or homebuilder, so I can't comment on the original post.

I remember some time ago during the 70's gas crunch there was talk of
selling straight ethanol for fuel. issues then were that a lot of plastics
(maybe rubbers too?) couldn't handle it.

what metals cant handle ethanol? not the water absorbed by ethanol, but
ethanol itself?

in the future I'll be looking into ethanol for fuel for small gas engines,
and work my way up to cars and such, so it will be a moot point.
"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

AOPA Pilot has a pretty good story on 100LL and the issues surrounding
replacements for it in the issue I got yesterday. I only got about half way
through it but it had some info I didn't know.



"Tater Schuld" wrote in message
...
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

not a pilot or homebuilder, so I can't comment on the original post.

I remember some time ago during the 70's gas crunch there was talk of
selling straight ethanol for fuel. issues then were that a lot of plastics
(maybe rubbers too?) couldn't handle it.

what metals cant handle ethanol? not the water absorbed by ethanol, but
ethanol itself?

in the future I'll be looking into ethanol for fuel for small gas engines,
and work my way up to cars and such, so it will be a moot point.
"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

"ventus2" wrote in message
...
Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested
in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise
they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what
effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could
just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris


I am not really sure whether or not I want to either, because I believe that
it really is four issues in one. I am going to list all four; but I
strongly believe that the third and fourth are the most important:
1) Ethanol and Methanol, as well as other "oxigenators", when used in
high concentrations, affect different materials in different ways than
"pure" gasoline manufactured in accordance with the appropriate
specification. That's a lot of mumbo-jumbo to say that they are chemically
different, and I am not a chemist either...
2) Ethanol and Methanol are hydroscopic. The most obvious is that you
can not drain water out of the fuel. The good new is that a small amount of
water in the blended fuel won't cause a complete loss of power, although it
will cause a power reduction. A small amount of alcohol, or a large amount
of blended fuel, can also be added to absorb the last traces of water which
might be present after sumping the tanks. I believe that is how "Prist"
works, and I already know that it is not approved for gasoline powered
aircraft engines.
3) According to the EAA web site, the "autofuel" STC permits the use of
fuel conforming to ASTM Specification D-4814 and/or D-439. Oxigenated fuels
and do not conform. Therefore, I presume, in order for oxigeated fuels to
be approved, the entire STC certification program would have to be
duplicated with oxigenated fuels. That might be required for each
"oxigenate".
For information regarding the current STC, see:
http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/stc.html
4) Fuel is ordinarily taxed "at the pump" based on where it is purchased;
so that, even though there is no such thing as untaxed fuel, it is possible
to pay the taxes into the wrong account. Therefore, if you buy gasoline at
your local marina or automotive filling station, and then truck it to the
airport for your airplane, you are probably adding the wrong kind of fuel to
the debate over user fees!

The issue not mentioned above, because it is not part of the alcohol issue,
is that the original purpose of the STC program was to make 80 octane fuel
available to all aircraft operators. Engines operated on higher octane fuel
than that which is required run hotter, require more maintenance, and are
more subject to fouling. That is not a good combination, so there was a
clear need which still exists.

Peter

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris


It also has a high vapour pressure, making vapour lock at altitude a
serious risk.

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Tater Schuld wrote:
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

Regards,

-Doug

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris


This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

Andy Asberry wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:



This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...
....
It also has a high vapour pressure, making vapour lock at altitude a
serious risk.



Actually, the vapor pressure with ethanol is lower than gasoline - the
problem is with gasoline /ethanol blends - the vapor pressure of the mixture
tends to peak at about 10% ethanol. The problem then is that if you get a
fair ammount of ethanol in your tank, add some straight gasoline, then the
vapor pressure of the mixture will be higher than either on it's own. A real
problem if you want to build a "flex fuel" control system that will run on
anything from gasoline to E85...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
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