The effects of Ethanol on...

"Bryan Martin" wrote in message
...
Andy Asberry wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:



This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.

Yes; and if you started with high test, it will probably cost 15% more and
may end up with the octane rating of regular. Obviously testing would be
necessary, so (just for giggles) I did a quick web search and the first
portable research octane tester that I turned up was this:
http://www.zeltex.com/portable/101.pdf They offer octane testers for
gasoline, blended gasoline, etc. I have no idea of what the price might be.

However, if your plan is to use the fuel in a type certified aircraft; then
there may still be a problem of certifying the fuel in compliance with the
appropriate ASTM specification--in order for the autofuel STC to be valid.
As an added concern, something I read recently also suggested to my that
there might be a similar problem in the cases of Amateur Built Aircraft
approved for IFR and night operation and equipped with type certified
engines...

Don't get my wrong. I am no fan of alcohol in gasoline, especially as a
mandate. In fact, it makes my mad as Hell! But, this may prove to be more
of an airworthiness issue than a physical problem.

Peter

wrote in message
oups.com...

Tater Schuld wrote:
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

ok, so we have people in an uproar about the addition of ethanol, but no
hard facts about what amounts is harmful.

is 10% ok?
20%?

where can I find a breakdown that can show the effects of ethanol in
percentages from 5% to 85%

what do they affect?

wrote:
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Tater Schuld wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

Tater Schuld wrote:

seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

ok, so we have people in an uproar about the addition of ethanol, but no
hard facts about what amounts is harmful.

is 10% ok?


You are possibly getting 10% now unless you carefully read the labels
on the pumps at your (auto) gasoline station. The current US laws
allow up to 10%, but the filling station pump must be clearly labelled
as such. Automobile manufacturers have been designing all of their
gasoline engine vehicles to be perfectly OK with up to 10% for many
years.



I have found ethanol in fuel from stations without the ethanol warning
on the pumps. The only way to be sure is to test for alcohol every time.

X-No-Archive
Bryan Martin wrote:

I have found ethanol in fuel from stations without the ethanol warning
on the pumps. The only way to be sure is to test for alcohol every time.

They are possibly breaking the law, depending upon how much alcohol is
present. You should report these potential violations to your state
motor vehicle office.

Regards,

-Doug

"Peter Dohm" kirjoitti
.net...
"Bryan Martin" wrote in message
...
Andy Asberry wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:46:28 +1000, "ventus2"
wrote:



This won't work (it will but would be too costly) with E-85 but
probably will with 10% ethanol. Use Ron's ethanol test...add a gallon
of water to 10 gallons of 10%, shake, drain off 2 gallons of
water/ethanol mix, go fly. Other than the aggravation, fuel cost is
increased 11%.

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

And the octane rating of the fuel is reduced in the process.

Yes; and if you started with high test, it will probably cost 15% more and
may end up with the octane rating of regular. Obviously testing would be
necessary, so (just for giggles) I did a quick web search and the first
portable research octane tester that I turned up was this:
http://www.zeltex.com/portable/101.pdf They offer octane testers for
gasoline, blended gasoline, etc. I have no idea of what the price might
be.

However, if your plan is to use the fuel in a type certified aircraft;
then
there may still be a problem of certifying the fuel in compliance with the
appropriate ASTM specification--in order for the autofuel STC to be valid.
As an added concern, something I read recently also suggested to my that
there might be a similar problem in the cases of Amateur Built Aircraft
approved for IFR and night operation and equipped with type certified
engines...

Don't get my wrong. I am no fan of alcohol in gasoline, especially as a
mandate. In fact, it makes my mad as Hell! But, this may prove to be
more
of an airworthiness issue than a physical problem.

Peter


About Zeltex ZX 101C portable octane tester - not cheap!

Some Indonesian price information is available:

US $ 13.500 CIF Jakarta


JP

Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and
some good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably
with some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's
RV series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years.
I am very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe
transition to ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming
soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

Some information about the topic can be found he

http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=110

JP


"Scott" kirjoitti
...
Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and some
good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably with
some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's RV
series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I am
very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe transition to
ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

I think Scott's attitude is more realistic than Denny's. Alcohol based
fuels, be it 100% alcohol or a mix of alcohol and gasoline, are on the
way. Simply from the cost perspective, I don't know about you guys, but
I've had to cut back on flying time because of the outrageous cost of
avgas and would be quite happy if I could get a safe, effective alcohol
based fuel at half (or less) the cost!
As to production, demand will drive production and we'll have as much
as we can use when we demand it. They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.
GM is already building hybrid alcohol/gasoline engines so many of the
"problems" noted have probably already been solved and the remainder
won't be far behind...so get ready for it, it's on the way and rather
sooner than later I (hope) think...

....Ken

Scott wrote:
Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and
some good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably
with some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's
RV series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I
am very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe
transition to ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming
soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

wrote in message
oups.com...
X-No-Archive
Tater Schuld wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Tater Schuld wrote:

where can I find a breakdown that can show the effects of ethanol in
percentages from 5% to 85%

Probably a research of SAE papers will show it. BUT, unless you KNOW
that your system has been designed to accept more than 10% I wouldn't
go there.

and how do I KNOW? I think that is what i am asking. you mention politics
and other factors shading the issue. I'd like to KNOW what parts in my
systems can or cannot handle ethanol in all percentages.


what do they affect?

As others have stated:
- alcohol is corrosive, in high enough concentrations.
- any fuel system component, fuel pump, lines, tank,
injector/carburetor can be harmed.
- any significant amount of alcohol that finds its way into the
crankcase oil can shorten the life of the basic engine itself. E85
compatible engines use a special oil to help address this.

Here's one (of many) quickie summaries.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/...27_01_1991.cfm

But read it with a grain of salt. There are politics in play. There
are certain grain-producing states and companies that have a large
financial interest in seeing more widespread use of ethanol. The
cleaner-air statements are a subject of debate. Adding an "oxygenate"
to an old carburetted system that may be running too rich might help a
bit by leaning it out with up to 10% alcohol. Properly tuned modern
engines, especially closed-loop fuel-injected don't need this "help".

yes other things to consider is what system I may be introducing ethanol
too.

Ken you are assuming that you are going to get this mixture cheaper. In
fact it might even be more expensive than straight av gas. The difference
would be is that it would be available. The avgas you currently burn may
not be either by regulation or supply.

Aviation is shrinking so fast that there will come a time when the oil
companies are no longer making enough of it to justify its continued
production. It may not be far off.

The big difference between cars and airplanes when dealing with these types
of issues is the lifespan of the product. How many people junk a 10 year
old airplane? Lots of junk 10 year old cars. We want an airplane to last
for 50 not 10 years. Even a slight problems become major with time. An
auto is just not intended to be in service that long (though some are as the
collector car business is doing well) .
"Ken Chaddock" wrote in message
news:Op45g.2173$cZ3.1590@clgrps13...
I think Scott's attitude is more realistic than Denny's. Alcohol based
fuels, be it 100% alcohol or a mix of alcohol and gasoline, are on the
way. Simply from the cost perspective, I don't know about you guys, but
I've had to cut back on flying time because of the outrageous cost of
avgas and would be quite happy if I could get a safe, effective alcohol
based fuel at half (or less) the cost!
As to production, demand will drive production and we'll have as much as
we can use when we demand it. They're doing it in Brazil, so effectively
that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they don't have
much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small portion of
their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the same in North
America.
GM is already building hybrid alcohol/gasoline engines so many of the
"problems" noted have probably already been solved and the remainder won't
be far behind...so get ready for it, it's on the way and rather sooner
than later I (hope) think...

...Ken

Scott wrote:
Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and some
good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably with
some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's RV
series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I am
very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe transition to
ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny