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The effects of Ethanol on...



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 30th 06, 11:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...


wrote .

There is no simple answer.


If you are answering tater, you had better make it a real simple answer.
That's the only kind he is likely to understand.
--
Jim in NC


  #22  
Old May 1st 06, 11:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...


wrote in message
oups.com...

There is no simple answer. If I were you I would contact the
manufacturer(s) of your engine and fuel system (tank, hoses, pump,
carb/injectors, etc.). At best you will likely get the maximum %
ethanol each component will tolerate. That should be good enough for
your purposes. Although I'm not sure why you want to know "in all
percentages". That may be asking too much. Are you saying that you
*plan* to run all percentages (0 to 85) in your aircraft? You do
realize that significant mixture adjustments must be made over that
range? How will you compensate for that?


I don't plan on doing it that way.

what I am trying to figure out is what would need to be replaced if I
decided to go from X% mix to a Y% mix. currently autogas can contain 10%,
but if I want to convert my truck so it can run 50%, what will I need to
replace?

ten bucks says that the manufacturers will stick to 10% and say anything
over that will void warranties, without bothering to see if that really is
the case.

yes, truck. I assume the same thinking goes into aircraft. been to Oshkosh,
cant afford a plane(yet!)


  #23  
Old May 2nd 06, 02:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...

mark wrote:

Ken you are assuming that you are going to get this mixture cheaper. In
fact it might even be more expensive than straight av gas. The difference
would be is that it would be available. The avgas you currently burn may
not be either by regulation or supply.


That's not how it's played out in places that have invested heavily in
alcohol fuels. In Brazil for example, fuel grade alcohol sells for about
1/5th the cost of gasoline.
In North America, regulation will likely prevent gouging since there
will not only be supply-side issues but also environmental issues and if
environmentally sensitive governments want people to switch to alcohol
it's likely they will move to prevent excess "profit taking"

Aviation is shrinking so fast that there will come a time when the oil
companies are no longer making enough of it to justify its continued
production. It may not be far off.


That's possible certainly but one of the reasons aviation is shrinking
is the cost of avgas. When I started flying I could fill up a C-172 for
a cool $15.00...and while I make a lot more now than I did then, fuel
costs are a significantly higher proportion of my per-hour flying costs
than they were was back then...When I'm sitting around the club, the
main bitch I hear is the cost of fuel and how it's keeping so many on
the ground...

The big difference between cars and airplanes when dealing with these types
of issues is the lifespan of the product. How many people junk a 10 year
old airplane? Lots of junk 10 year old cars. We want an airplane to last
for 50 not 10 years. Even a slight problems become major with time. An
auto is just not intended to be in service that long (though some are as the
collector car business is doing well) .


These are all just technical problems that can (and I expect) will be
solved. It remains to be seen whether the solutions will be affordable
for general aviation...

....Ken
  #24  
Old May 2nd 06, 07:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...


Tater Schuld wrote:
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?


Some are mostly methanol.

Some others use isopropynol. Pat Gauss (of PBS's autoweek) advises
using only the isopropynol variety as it does not attack the
elastomeric
components of the fuel system the way methanol and ethanol do.

--

FF

  #25  
Old May 6th 06, 01:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...

They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.


When I stayed in Brazil for a few months building motorgliders at Aeromot
and hanging out with the engineers, I was informed that auto engines there
(eg. 1.4, 1.6L VW Golfs, no, nothing to do with 'thats because they are
VW's') were lasting on average around 60,000km using the high blend ethanol
fuel (the one that costs 1/5th the price of normal fuel).

We all fuss and potter over our aircraft engines and always seem to have our
fingers in there making sure that all is well, and more often than not they
are fine for their lifespan. How many 'average' people would take the cover
off their 'eco' car engine to make sure that the timing is right, check the
sparks plugs etc? More often than not, they just run.
I am certainly not confident in taking the heads off a car engine to see the
affects of Ethanol on the pistons/valves, yet more often than not, people
seem much more at ease taking the heads off their Rotax or Jabiru engine to
have a bit of a look.
I guess this is a whole different topic, though eventually will we get
reports in on what is happening to the insides of the engines.

Time will tell.

Chris



  #26  
Old May 6th 06, 08:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...



What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of it through the engine to keep from running
lean. How does fuel consumption compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?


  #27  
Old May 6th 06, 10:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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".Blueskies." wrote in message
. com...


What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?


About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.
--
Jim in NC


  #28  
Old May 7th 06, 04:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...

On Sat, 6 May 2006 17:19:35 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


".Blueskies." wrote in message
.com...


What is the power density of the ethanol? I know you have to shoot more of
it through the engine to keep from running lean. How does fuel consumption
compare; gph gasoleen vs gph ethanol. What weight difference is there?


About 10% more needed per HP. A little less than 10% weight.


With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #29  
Old May 7th 06, 04:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...


"Roger" wrote in message

With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?


I could be thinking of the fuel/alcohol mix. Sorry.
--
Jim in NC


  #30  
Old May 7th 06, 06:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default The effects of Ethanol on...

On Sat, 6 May 2006 23:36:01 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote in message

With Methanol containing about half the energy per unit volume of gas
I have a problem reconciling that 10% more. What am I missing?


I could be thinking of the fuel/alcohol mix. Sorry.


That'd be about right for the "Gasahol" we use for "regular" here in
Michigan.

Currently there are two "standard" mixes. Gasahol which uses up to
10% ethenol and E85 which is 85% alcohol, but I've never seen that in
Michigan. I understand it's available in Wisconsin and several other
states. Probably some areas in Michigan too, but as I said, I've never
seen it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
 




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