When trailers go bad OR How not to tow your Wright Brothers machine

"wright1902glider" wrote


I've been thinking about this a lot in the past few days, and I keep
coming back to the conclusion that I've got more of a height-to-track
ratio problem or a CG problem than a sway issue. From my rear-view
mirror observations, the trailer doesn't sway so much as it just rocks
up on one wheel. I can push on the side of the trailer near the tail
end and in 3-5 pushes, rock it up and nearly over.

Good golly , yes, on the CG problem. That thing is a lot taller than I had
imagined.

I have another insight into your problem.

I think the axle being so far towards the rear is a major part of the tipover.
You have a magjority of your weight on the ball. That is like having a bunch of
weight sitting on a knife edge, just waiting to tip over.

You seriously need to figure out how far forward you can move the axle. It
needs to be forward just to the point of swaying. If the load is even from
front to back, it should place the axle at 60/40. You look to have the axle
like 80/20.

Look at it this way. If the axle is 6 feet from the back, then the weight that
is on the back 6 feet, and 6 feet in front of the axle is using the axle to keep
it stable from side to side. All of the weight in front of that is sitting on a
ball, wanting to flip either left or right. More weight needs to be on the
axle! From your description of pusing it, the springs need to be more stiff,
or have shocks on it. Wider would be better, also, as you say.

Jim, I had been thinking about the ballast system. The local glider FBO
in Boulder, who is also an RAH'er suggested something like this. But
the idea for the pump is the missing link. I can see it helping
considerably on the Interstates. Maybe something like a 12v bilge pump
plumbed between two tanks made from large diameter PVC. Sling 'em low
and to the sides like the external fuel tanks on a CH-53 Sea Stallion.
I've also thought about just adding a concrete-filled steel pipe under
the chassis center to act like the keel of a sailboat. All of this will
require testing of course.

I would thing bigger than pipe would be needed. How about plastic chemical
drums? If you used pipe, you would need to have a low point for the water to
collect for the bilge pump, or any pump to work.

A bilge pump would work very well. They usually have automatic shutoffs, when
they pump dry. All you have to do is pick which tank you want to be empty, and
turn that power supply on and leave it on. If a check valve is not incuded in
the pump, you would want to put one in, to keep the pump off after it transfers.
One pump per tank (or side), two wires going to the cab, a three position
switch, and you have it licked! For equal weight on each side, you would have
to time how long it takes to go from empty to equal, then use that figure to run
a pump and then swtch it off.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much wider I could make the axle? Keep
in mind, the chassis is on 48" spring centers, using 2-leaf
slipper-springs, and currently has a hubface-to-hubface measurement of
60". I've seen heavy air-compressors, like those you see powering
jackhammers, rolling on 3-4' spring centers with about a 6' axle. But
all of the suspension components looked very heavy. My chasis is so
light that I'm concerned about adding too much axle and overloading the
frame attachment points, shackles, etc. with dynamic loads.

If you are concerned about point attachment loads, you could put a heavier angle
iron, or U channel over the existing frme, as a doubler. Make it long enough to
go about 3 feet past the attach points, and that should spread the load well
enough. If you are going to go to a wider axle, it would help to go as wide as
is reasonable, say a shade under 8 feet. Changing the spring fittings on the
axle to match your frame should not be a big deal, with a little welding. While
you are at it, move that darn axle forward, too!
--
Jim in NC

"Ed Sullivan" wrote in message
...
On 3 Nov 2006 09:59:26 -0800, "wright1902glider"
wrote:

Thanks for all of the unique thinking folks. Lots of good ideas.

Here's a link to my website that has a photo of the "rolling hawg
shed".

Harry

Have you considered the toe out or in on the wheels. I believe this
has an affect on the stability although I can't recall which is which.

Here we go again! At least it is not toe in or out on airplanes!

Toe in for trailers, is correct. That way, if the trailer moves to the left,
the left wheel now is making the toe even worse, creating more drag, to force it
back in line with the tow vehicle.

I don't think that stability of this type is the OP's problem, though.
--
Jim in NC

The over all width before you need special permits is 8 feet. Your thread
width may be all that you need to increase for stability. 5 foot isn't very
wide.


--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A 45 Year Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot


"wright1902glider" wrote in message
oups.com...
What is the total weight of the loaded trailer, and what is the weight
of the
tongue (at the ball) with the load on the trailer? You could have a
balance
problem.
--
Jim in NC

No dice Jim. The axle is only 4' forward of the back end. Loaded tongue
weight is at the upper limits, usually 200+, but I've tried several
different balance combinations within the 10-20% of gross range without
any improvement. I don't think an anti-sway hitch would do much good
either, since the trailer has a tendancy to just roll over, rather than
sway wildly.

Good news though. A few months ago, I ferried the boat I inhierited
(sp?) from my Dad. 1500 miles from Louisiana to CO. with no problems.
The boat is 17' long, about 1,000 lbs. gross, and has a side profile
about 3' high. I ran on the same 12x4.8" tires that I pulled off of the
glider trailer, and didn't have any problems with 15-20 MPH crosswinds.
It did tuck in rather nicely behind the Dak, with the top deck at the
same height as the top of the tailgate, so that may help as well.


FYI: I've looked very hard at several sailplane trailers. But all that
I've seen so far will not accomodate the 60" chord wings from the
Wright machine. If anyone knows of a trailer that might, I'm open to
suggestions. Otherwise, I'll keep saving my pennies until I can afford
a 8x44' gooseneck & dually. Then, it would just be a matter of pulling
the front feathers off and stuffing the whole assembled glider into its
rolling hangar.

Harry

"wright1902glider" wrote in message
oups.com...
What is the total weight of the loaded trailer, and what is the weight
of the
tongue (at the ball) with the load on the trailer? You could have a
balance
problem.
--
Jim in NC

No dice Jim. The axle is only 4' forward of the back end. Loaded tongue
weight is at the upper limits, usually 200+, but I've tried several
different balance combinations within the 10-20% of gross range without
any improvement. I don't think an anti-sway hitch would do much good
either, since the trailer has a tendancy to just roll over, rather than
sway wildly.

Good news though. A few months ago, I ferried the boat I inhierited
(sp?) from my Dad. 1500 miles from Louisiana to CO. with no problems.
The boat is 17' long, about 1,000 lbs. gross, and has a side profile
about 3' high. I ran on the same 12x4.8" tires that I pulled off of the
glider trailer, and didn't have any problems with 15-20 MPH crosswinds.
It did tuck in rather nicely behind the Dak, with the top deck at the
same height as the top of the tailgate, so that may help as well.


FYI: I've looked very hard at several sailplane trailers. But all that
I've seen so far will not accomodate the 60" chord wings from the
Wright machine. If anyone knows of a trailer that might, I'm open to
suggestions. Otherwise, I'll keep saving my pennies until I can afford
a 8x44' gooseneck & dually. Then, it would just be a matter of pulling
the front feathers off and stuffing the whole assembled glider into its
rolling hangar.

Harry


Yet another clueless response:
Have you checked toe-out/in on the trailer wheels?
Tim Ward

"Tim Ward" wrote

Yet another clueless response:
Have you checked toe-out/in on the trailer wheels?
Tim Ward

Most bought trailer axles have no provision for toe in/out. They are dead
straight.

A big clue came when the OP said he could get one wheel to lift off the ground,
just by pushing back and forth on the trailer, and get it rocking back and
forth. Sway from toe in/out is not a problem here.

Wider axle, and more weight on the axle, and less on the ball. That is what is
needed.
--
Jim in NC

Jim,

Skeerd yet? That thing's got over 7,000 miles on it!

I think you may have a point about the fore/aft balance. Truth is, I
havn't checked the balance with a set of scales since I first built it.
I've only weighed the tongue. That's going to be step one of the
rebuild... to get the balance right. Even so, the last balast test
involved loading 480 lbs. of sandbags in the aft end. There was a
definite improvement, but it was still unstable.

I've had another idea that the 2x4 wood framing in the deck could be
replaced by steel angle if I can find it cheap enough. I might also be
able to use a set of plastic "sprayer tanks" for the balast system.

And yet another thought. That I should ditch that Chineese frame and
just weld my own. HA! A bona fide excuse to buy a welding torch.

Harry

"wright1902glider" wrote

And yet another thought. That I should ditch that Chineese frame and
just weld my own. HA! A bona fide excuse to buy a welding torch.

There you go! Now you're talkin'.

By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
I'll bet!
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
I'll bet!
--
Jim in NC


Jim,

A few months ago at EAA Copperstate, I had a chance to try my hand. My
beads were pretty lumpy, but the steel was rusty, and the wind was
blowing 10-15. I'm also left-handed which complicates teaching
experience. But I did get good penetration.

The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?

I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?

Just wondering.
Harry

Morgans wrote:
By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
I'll bet!
--
Jim in NC


Jim,

A few months ago at EAA Copperstate, I had a chance to try my hand. My
beads were pretty lumpy, but the steel was rusty, and the wind was
blowing 10-15. I'm also left-handed which complicates teaching
experience. But I did get good penetration.

The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?

I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?

Just wondering.
Harry

"wright1902glider" wrote

The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?

I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?

Best get an answer from someone else. I'm a woodworker, that welds when there
is no choice. g Then, my favorite weapon is a wire welder. I do know how to
gas weld, but I would need considerable practice to get to aircraft grade welds.
--
Jim in NC