PSA: Don't be rude on the radio

"Cessna Seventy-three Charlie Quebec is departing runway 25 at Grass Valley
on a 2300 mile final for runway 9 Oshkosh."

{;-)

Jim



"Allen" wrote in message
...



Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?

On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.

("Steven P. McNicoll" swrote)
If you're able to run from a shark you're on land and there's no need to
run at all.


Let alone searching for a shark's ass, to kick.


Mont-black-in-the-water-everyone

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Steven P. McNicoll" swrote)
If you're able to run from a shark you're on land and there's no need to
run at all.


Let alone searching for a shark's ass, to kick.

They must have one. Otherwise they'd just eat all day and night and keep
getting bigger and bigger wouldn't they? :-))
Dudley Henriques

On May 10, 3:20 pm, "Allen" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


I'm saying the official definition of "final approach" is vague with
regards to distance from the end of the runway. Realisticly, I would
argue that "final approach" would begin at the point you can see the
runway. Outside of that, I'd call distance and intention; ie- "Twin
Cessna 3AB, 15 to the west, straight in runway 9.... Twin Cessna 3AB,
10 mile final, runway 9" etc.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
"Montblack" wrote:
Let alone searching for a shark's ass, to kick.

They must have one. Otherwise they'd just eat all day and night and
keep getting bigger and bigger wouldn't they? :-))

Really, no ****?

;-)

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
"Montblack" wrote:
Let alone searching for a shark's ass, to kick.

They must have one. Otherwise they'd just eat all day and night and
keep getting bigger and bigger wouldn't they? :-))

Really, no ****?

;-)

OUCH!!!

What's REALLY troublesome to me about this is that I have to reason to
myself how 50 odd (and odd is indeed appropriate here :-) years in
professional aviation has finally come down for me to this thread.
:-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Dudley Henriques

wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 10, 3:20 pm, "Allen" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final"
as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


I'm saying the official definition of "final approach" is vague with
regards to distance from the end of the runway. Realisticly, I would
argue that "final approach" would begin at the point you can see the
runway. Outside of that, I'd call distance and intention; ie- "Twin
Cessna 3AB, 15 to the west, straight in runway 9.... Twin Cessna 3AB,
10 mile final, runway 9" etc.

No, I am with you on this! I just think there should be some (even if it is
arbitrary number pulled from a hat) distance to define when you are on
"final". What if you are approaching an airport from the wrong side and
make a right-hand turn to align with a runway with a left-hand traffic
pattern. There should be some distance from the airport you could do this
and then make a "straight-in" approach without violating any regs or the
AIM.

"buttman" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 10:20 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In
addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an
airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus
had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic
which
you did not see.



First off, I never said I did nothing wrong. I know I made a mistake
by turning in front of him. We all make mistakes, whether you're an
instructor or not. THE WHOLE POINT of the post was that the Cirrus guy
had to act like a pumpus ass.

Sounds like a typical childish response (ie, making excuses).

The only pompous ass here is yourself.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO