that would suck

the media has covered the alleged cases where pilots
refused to conduct strikes because they were not satisfied that the target
they were being asked to hit was a legitimate terrorist target

Unless this was a second case, I thought the first simply involved a refusal
due to what several reserve pilots felt was less than adequate collateral
damage concerns?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
the media has covered the alleged cases where pilots
refused to conduct strikes because they were not satisfied that the
target
they were being asked to hit was a legitimate terrorist target

Unless this was a second case, I thought the first simply involved a
refusal
due to what several reserve pilots felt was less than adequate collateral
damage concerns?

Actually, two different cases. I believe what you are referring to was the
infamous letter signed by the twenty-some pilots who were indeed concerned
over collateral damage in terms of the targeted assassination strike
missions. The case I was referring to was the one reported a year or two
earlier, where an attack helo pilot acknowledged that he (and apparently
some of his comrades) had on occasion turned down CAS target requests
(during the movement into the Paelestinaian Authority controlled areas, and
immediately thereafter) because they were not satisfied that the target they
were given was appropriate. ISTR Defense News covered it at the time.

Brooks



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
No offense but there are a lot of Jewish
people in this country who can't believe
how violent the Israelis are. Some of their
own pilots quit flying because they were
asked to bomb civilians.

Not quite accurate. Several IAF reserve pilots refused to fly strike
missions
into the West Bank and Gaza Strip because they felt collateral damage
issues
were not being properly addressed.

Yes and no. I believe the poster was correct in that there were also
incidences of immediate CAS being refused by attack helos because the pilots
were not convinced the target they were being given was legitimate, or that
the folks calling in the mission were really sure that the bad guys were in
that exact location. But the case of pilots signing the letter saying they
refused to fly the missions you noted also occured as you describe.

Brooks



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

How can you be so sure of that?


Because it can be no other way.

"Gray asphalt" wrote:


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...
:
: "717" wrote in message
: news:QWRjc.18592$Z%5.14063@okepread01...
:
: That's a fine line, isn't it... And if the pilots thought
: the collateral damage was significant enough to
: compell them to refuse to fly then that's a pretty
: serious indication that the missions were planned
: in a way that discounted civilian lives to a degree
: that the pilots were unwilling to participate.
:
:
: Remember, the terrorists they're being directed to bomb are killing
Israeli
: civilians.
:
:

No offence, but they know exactly who they
were bombing and they chose to disobey orders
which is a strong statement.


I must agree with you...these aren't some ragtag groups who have
little sense of what's going on, these are very professional
military people and if they are so confident of their convictions
then it would behoove their superiors to investigate. Too bad
that the German military didn't use this tactic a few years ago.
--

-Gord.

Yes and no. I believe the poster was correct in that there were also
incidences of immediate CAS being refused by attack helos because the pilots
were not convinced the target they were being given was legitimate

OK, I don't remember that one. That, to me, seems a less legitimate call...at
least the first time. I mean, when a guy on the ground makes a CAS request,
he's getting my benifit of doubt (if I have any in the first place). Perhaps
this refusal was due to repeated incidents of substantial collateral damage
events during CAS missions? But man, I'm hear to tell you, from my perspective
that would still be a tough call...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Yes and no. I believe the poster was correct in that there were also
incidences of immediate CAS being refused by attack helos because the
pilots
were not convinced the target they were being given was legitimate

OK, I don't remember that one. That, to me, seems a less legitimate
call...at
least the first time. I mean, when a guy on the ground makes a CAS
request,
he's getting my benifit of doubt (if I have any in the first place).
Perhaps
this refusal was due to repeated incidents of substantial collateral
damage
events during CAS missions? But man, I'm hear to tell you, from my
perspective
that would still be a tough call...

I agree, but as I recall it, the pilot who acknowledged it indicated that
they were getting antsy about some of the calls from the folks on the
ground, so they started asking pointed questions. The guy on the ground
would say we took some fire, hit that building...and the pilot would come
back with something like, are you sure that is the source of the fires,
which window, etc.? It has been a couple of years now, but I can remember
being actually sort of impressed with the pilot's view, which was something
along the lines of, if it is truly a legit target, within reasonable doubt,
no problemno, it is serviced; but if you just took a couple of rounds and
don't *know* the exact source, I am not going to launch a Hellfire into an
apartment building because you just think it might be a possible source of
fires. When the number of unarmed people you are killing with "surgical"
strikes outnumbers the number of armed personnel you are killing by a wide
(three or four-to-one) margin, then methinks there is a bit of a targeting
problem, and it likely is *not* on the pilots' side of the equation, IMO.

Brooks



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"