LX Era 80 vs S80/S100

Question for Paul Remde ... you also sell LX Navigation products. Are you steering customers away from LX Navigation toward LX Nav and if so, why? Not asking a gotcha question. Genuinely interested to know your experience with both across their product lines.

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 3:57:23 PM UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:39:04 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:16:20 UTC+3, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.

This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.

LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.

Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.

This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.

I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?

I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.

You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.

I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:

1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro

None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.

So why not move the vario (with unlocked AHRS) to new glider? AHRS transferred.

That's an option, but here are my thoughts:

1) I guess I'm not impressed by a company which thinks that I should have to rip out my instrument panel in order to transfer a secret password. There's a lot of risk involved in tearing down a known-working system.
2) My glider's new owner might not appreciate having a hole in the instrument panel rendering the plane inoperable. In fact, I'm guessing that impacts resale value more than the money I save.
3) I might not be changing gliders, but instead am doing a panel upgrade. A $4k upgrade which has the sole purpose of having a larger screen has a lot less appeal when you tell me I need to spend another $800.

I agree there are AHRS workarounds. But the questions are "why should I have to?", "what's the real risk and cost?" and "am I better with another brand?"

The conclusion is that by not being so stingy with a software code LX Nav could treat AHRS customers a little better, avoiding this self-inflicted wound.

Speak to your LXNAV agent. I arranged a vario system upgrade and got the AHRS function transferred to the new one without additional charge. Not in the USA.

Speak to your LXNAV agent. I arranged a vario system upgrade and got the AHRS function transferred to the new one without additional charge. Not in the USA.

That's a great data point. My information came last month from Wings and Wheels, who contacted the factory directly and relayed the response to me. So it looks like YMMV.

On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 4:48:33 PM UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
Speak to your LXNAV agent. I arranged a vario system upgrade and got the AHRS function transferred to the new one without additional charge. Not in the USA.

That's a great data point. My information came last month from Wings and Wheels, who contacted the factory directly and relayed the response to me. So it looks like YMMV.

On reflection. and thinking back several years Kenz, I think that my case may not be a such strong precedent for you. There was an upgrade price offer in place and my original unit was returned to the LXNAV agent and not sold to someone else. Also it was a 9000 system rather than a stand alone vario

On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:57:23 UTC+3, Kenz Dale wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:39:04 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 17:16:20 UTC+3, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.

This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out, you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have to spend $800.

LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new installations.

Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software is a dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of portability is a perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.

This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for the license to switch it on.

I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I had had an LX Navigation device instead?

I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few years.

You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.

I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness. AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded situation:

1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable
2.) It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about upgradability
3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk customers for every last euro

None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product. In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it, without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an AHRS.

So why not move the vario (with unlocked AHRS) to new glider? AHRS transferred.

That's an option, but here are my thoughts:

1) I guess I'm not impressed by a company which thinks that I should have to rip out my instrument panel in order to transfer a secret password. There's a lot of risk involved in tearing down a known-working system.
2) My glider's new owner might not appreciate having a hole in the instrument panel rendering the plane inoperable. In fact, I'm guessing that impacts resale value more than the money I save.
3) I might not be changing gliders, but instead am doing a panel upgrade. A $4k upgrade which has the sole purpose of having a larger screen has a lot less appeal when you tell me I need to spend another $800.

I agree there are AHRS workarounds. But the questions are "why should I have to?", "what's the real risk and cost?" and "am I better with another brand?"

The conclusion is that by not being so stingy with a software code LX Nav could treat AHRS customers a little better, avoiding this self-inflicted wound.

I pretty sure that you are the only pilot in the world that has a problem with this.

wrote on 5/13/2020 7:16 AM:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:08:18 AM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 09:02:28 UTC+1, Kenz Dale wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 9:17:12 AM UTC-4, Turkey Vulture wrote:
I have actually used the s100 in my DG 100 for 1 season. I popped for the
AHRS as well. 80mm is the way to go.

This is a huge difference between the two brands. LX Nav does not let you
revoke the AHRS key, which translated into normal human speak means that
you can't take your AHRS with you. So if you sell your unit to someone else
because you want LX Nav's latest and greatest, or just your unit conks out,
you're SOL for the $$$ you spent. Every time you get a new model you have
to spend $800.

LX Navigation has a separate AHRS module which is portable to new
installations.

Frankly, and this is speaking as an embedded guy who's been doing drone
autopilot firmware since 2010, LX Nav has destroyed a lot of the value of
their product for peeps who want an AHRS. Unless their internal software
is a dumpster fire, which is its own problem, fixing this lack of
portability is a perfect first task for an intern/junior engineer.

This is a commercial issue not an engineering issue. I believe all these
devices have the necessary sensors to provide an AHRS - the payment is for
the license to switch it on.

I have just upgraded my LX 9000 - I traded in the previous one to LX and paid
an upgrade price. Who knows how the cost to upgrade would have compared if I
had had an LX Navigation device instead?

I know two people who bought LX Navigation LX 10k's. Neither could be got to
work and they eventually had to change to something different. This makes me
dubious about the product development quality at LX Navigation, whereas I
have not heard of problems like that with LX Nav equipment in the last few
years.

You are right that all units have an AHRS built in, but it can only be unlocked
with a $800 software unlock code which you punch into your LX Nav. This key
code cannot be revoked or transferred, so you cannot take your AHRS with you.

I don't intend to comment as to LX Nav's general reliability or usefulness.
AFAICT they have an excellent reputation. And we honestly don't know enough
about the problem to state where it's coming from. But from the optic of my
experience I only see three possibilities, all of which require a boneheaded
situation:

1.) Their internal software is so horrible and made with such copy-pasta
spaghetti code that the cost of a fix, no matter how small, is unacceptable 2.)
It's a boneheaded product decision that customers don't care about
upgradability 3.) It's a boneheaded commercial decision to try to milk
customers for every last euro

None of those speak to good management decisions on this part of the product.
In fact, they'd be better off to reissue a code to a client for free rather
than make them upset that they lost $800 in value because they upgraded to a
bigger screen or a better vario. At least that buys them time to fix it,
without eating away at the admittedly small market of glider pilots who want an
AHRS.

When I wander down the ramp at soaring meccas like Ephrata, Parowan, and Ely, I
see mostly LXNav equipment. The pilots typically say they "love the equipment" and
think the company is responsive to their requests, so I have to believe the
company is making good choices.

I am puzzled by your complaint, however. Do you prefer the LXNav vario, and are
just disappointed it might cost more at some unknown time in future to change to
different vario of the same brand?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I am puzzled by your complaint, however. Do you prefer the LXNav vario, and are
just disappointed it might cost more at some unknown time in future to change to
different vario of the same brand?

AFAICT, LX Nav makes quality hardware which suits the needs of a wide range of pilots. However, it has made a decision which negatively and needlessly impacts a subset of those pilots. Consumers in 2020 expect that when they change their hardware they take their paid software with them.

If you are an instrument pilot and like to have an AHRS in your plane, then this impacts the value proposition for LX Nav. LX Navigation makes a portable AHRS system, which enhances its value relative to LX Nav.

I don't think there's a lot to read into this. Possibly, as krasw points out, the subset of pilot is no larger than a handful of people. Still, it was useful to me to know about the AHRS decision *before* purchasing an LX9000.. Now I can more fully consider my options and better understand the true cost of ownership. I imagine this information will be useful to other AHRS clients as well.

A newby here.

Can anyone explain WHY LX NAV and LX Navigation split up? Just what caused this situation of two nearly identical product lines by two different companies from the same nation?

I found this post from 2012 ...

“As I heard complete story:
First was LX Navigation company and they developed all instuments
Colibri lx16, lx166,lx7000, lx7007 itc.. and also lx8000.
Then some developers left the company and start new bussines with
LXNav company.
Mr. Rojnik gave them rights to sell LX8000 product + also the get
market, NAME and dealers.
At first they were working friendly companies, but if you sell similar
products it can cause that happened here.
They become biggest competitors.�

But there seems ti be more to it than that. The LX1000 was a Dittel. The LX4000 was a Filser. These were German companies that changed ownership and evolved over time to new entities. It seems that LX Navigation (and later LX Nav) may have been offshoots of some sort. I’m just as confused about it as you though.