Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

Hi,

the ASW19 will probably give you least concern in terms of maintenance. At least here in Europe, Schleicher provides excellent support even for the older ships. There is no type certificate holder for the PIK20 anymore. Parts for LS1-f are to some extend still available but you may have to pay the "DG-tax". For previous LS1 versions, things are more difficult.

Assembly of all three models works pretty similar, but the ASW19 has rather heavy wings (70-75kg). All have manual aileron/flaps connectors. Most 19 have a manual elevator connector which one needs to take care of.

Best,
Christoph

My experience has been that gliders with manual control hookups are very
easy to rig, just don't forget to hook up the controls. I think all
that you mention have manual controls. I owned an ASW-19b and it was
very easy to rig. Most of the people here will tell you to get the
glider with the best trailer, but I think the glider is most important.
You will decide that for yourself.

Regarding condition, I would look first for cracks in the finish. I'm
not talking about the normal crazing or cracking that you see in the
finish of older gliders but those which indicate deeper damage. You
would be wise to have someone with experience in these things to help
you with the inspection. Check log book(s) for damage/repair history
but realize that not all damage or repairs will be documented. You'll
have to make a careful inspection.

My personal preference in certification is to get a glider which is
licensed as experimental. There are minor hassles with annual Program
Letters, but these are simple to write and submit. People on this forum
can provide examples. With an experimental glider you have more leeway
with inspections and modifications than with a Standard airworthiness
glider, especially if your manufacturer is no longer in business. Just
be sure that you stay within the regulations.

Good luck in your hunt and welcome back!

Dan

On 10/16/2015 8:51 AM, PAGA wrote:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

--
Dan, 5J

Buy a good 19!

LS1 you will need to pay the DG tax.

No need to say anything about the Pik.

I flew a Grob 102 for my first ship. I did love it but assembly was a pain, getting the wing pins lined up sucked!

I'm now in a DG 100 and there is a significant difference in stick feel (much lighter!). My flying buddy has an ASW 19 and we go head to head all the time.

Both of these ships are very light on the stick (compared to the Grob 102) with really no bad habits (not that the 102 has any either). I would go with the ASW 19. Heavier wings but easy assembly, amazing performance, parts are available, and everyone knows an ASW so resale shouldn't be difficult.
ASW 19's are still one of the most beautiful fuselage forms in soaring so you'll be looking good on the flightline too

As you're concerned with maintenance, then to me there isn't much of a decision.
Get a 19B if possible.
Jim

I loved my 20 and the 19 is a 20 without flaps. You will love the 19 and it will be easier to sell than the others if you ever decide. Best of luck with whatever new ship you get!

Bruno - B4

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 11:30:05 AM UTC-4, Justin Craig wrote:
Buy a good 19!

LS1 you will need to pay the DG tax.

No need to say anything about the Pik.

Good comments all, thus far.

Out of your list, I feel the 19 would be the best out of them. Good support, easy to fly (winglets can help here on the low speed side, Nixon/Murray tips seem the best) and decent performance. Similar would be the Pegase 101 (French 19).

They are all older gliders, so reasonable finish (slight crazing is almost a given, deep cracks will require an expensive refinish) is worth looking for.
A "factory" type trailer is also desirable, some "cobbled together" trailers can be a real PITA do deal with and may raise the chance to damage the glider.

Welcome back to the sport. ;-)

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 7:51:58 AM UTC-7, PAGA wrote:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

I believe the PIK20 came from the factory polyurethane finished. And so may have a better finish than an old gel coated glider. The D model has spoilers, earlier ones had high deflection flaps which are quirky but very effective.

Any of the gliders mentioned are far easier to assembly than any Grob, in my experience.

If you like to fly with water, go for the PIK. It takes more and handles the weight better.
If there is a lot of bugs in the air, avoid the PIK. Read Johonssons report and you know why. Anyway Read Johonssons reports for all gliders.
If you are tall and wide, go for the ASW19. Biggest cockpit af them all.
The ASW19 have soft wings. Good for long rides on the ridge.
The LS1 has medium hard wings, giving you better weak thermal feedback in your but.
The PIK comes in eithr glas och carbon wings.
There is a difference in performnace between lS1-c/d and the -f
There is no need for contract with DG, not until you need spares.

/Per
800h LS1-f #283