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Best option for electric self starting glider



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 8th 20, 03:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Magnus
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

Hi experienced glider pilots,

I am a newly retired ex glider pilot that is updating my license and want to do some serious soaring and distance flights in Europe now that I have plenty of time. I live in Lausanne (member of Montricher gliding club) and as well member in Landskrona gliding club in Sweden as well where I spend most of my summers.
I have come down to the following alternatives for a private purchase:

- LAK 17C Front Electric Self starter, 18m, 22kW, 10.32 m2 wing surface, MTOW 600kg and CS-22 certification

- GP-15 Jetta, retractable motor, 15m, 25kW, 7.78 m2 wing surface, MTOW 470kg, UL/EcoLight certification

Both ships are flapped, take water ballast, Vne= 275km/h, wing loading between 37 - 57kg/m2, L/D around 50 and has a base price of apps. 100kEuro

GP15 seems to be a more modern glider with safety cockpit, ballistic rescue system and steerable tail wheel but LAK seems to be a more stable company with longer experience.

This is a nice problem to have but I would very much like your input as I have a one time opportunity to get my dream machine and I want to get it right.

/Magnus




  #2  
Old April 8th 20, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

Hello Magnus,

I can't respond to flight characteristics of the two self-launchers you mentioned (LAK-17C and GP-Gliders JETA). But, I can say that I sat in a JETA and also have JETA serial number 5 on order.

The JETA MTOG, per the provisional flight manual, is 525KG (1157 lbs). Below are the advertised self-launch numbers with the larger battery:

a) 5 x takeoff and climb to 800 m (2,600 feet) altitude, or
b) 1 x takeoff and climb to 800 m altitude + 150 km (80 nm) autonomy, or
c) 1 x takeoff and total climb to 4 500 m (14,700 feet)
d) my number: aero tow and 185 km (100nm) autonomy based on 20 nm/launch.

Climb rate: 3,7 m/s (728 fpm or 7.2 knots)

takeoff distance: 180 m (590 feet)

I visited the GP-Glider factory near Krosno, Poland (jokingly to make sure that they weren't operating out of a tent). I was happy that they were doing things correctly. A visit to the LAK factory would have given me a balanced experience, but I was not able to do that.

Raul Boerner
LS-6BWL
  #3  
Old April 8th 20, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh[_2_]
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

I'd take any unproven factory "statistics" with a large grain of
salt. You have a well known Antares 20E pilot based at
Montricher, have you asked his opinion?
You remember that old saw: never buy the first of anything, it
applies equally to yachts and sailplanes.
Dave Walsh (20E owner).

  #4  
Old April 8th 20, 05:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 11:45:05 AM UTC-4, Dave Walsh wrote:
Dave Walsh (20E owner).


I believe that should be "(Long-suffering Antares 20E owner)"?
Meanwhile, mine has failed yet again...
  #5  
Old April 8th 20, 06:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

Did you consider a Diana 2-FES? Mine delivers this month.
I chose it because it's a proven performing 15m glider, and it has the proven electric FES system. I don't want to be a test pilot for a new system with bugs.

I didn't place my order until I confirmed the performance figures myself and flew it to evaluate the handling, I would not trust any predicted/calculated numbers.
  #6  
Old April 8th 20, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:04:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
Did you consider a Diana 2-FES? Mine delivers this month.
I chose it because it's a proven performing 15m glider, and it has the proven electric FES system. I don't want to be a test pilot for a new system with bugs.

I didn't place my order until I confirmed the performance figures myself and flew it to evaluate the handling, I would not trust any predicted/calculated numbers.


Are the Diana 2 FES and Lak 17B FES officially "self starters" - i.e. self-launchers as are the GP 15 and the Mini-LAK? Please correct me if I am wrong but I wasn't aware that they are other than self-sustainers, although I believe self-launching is unofficially possible in the right wind/runway/weight conditions.
  #7  
Old April 8th 20, 06:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Magnus
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:31:13 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:04:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
Did you consider a Diana 2-FES? Mine delivers this month.
I chose it because it's a proven performing 15m glider, and it has the proven electric FES system. I don't want to be a test pilot for a new system with bugs.

I didn't place my order until I confirmed the performance figures myself and flew it to evaluate the handling, I would not trust any predicted/calculated numbers.


Are the Diana 2 FES and Lak 17B FES officially "self starters" - i.e. self-launchers as are the GP 15 and the Mini-LAK? Please correct me if I am wrong but I wasn't aware that they are other than self-sustainers, although I believe self-launching is unofficially possible in the right wind/runway/weight conditions.


LAK 17B FES is a sustainer but the new 17C FES is claimed as a self-starter (as miniLAK) with higher landing gear for propeller clearance, stronger FES, different aerodynamicall configuration of wings and fuselage according to LAK. For the Diana 2 FES I don't know.
  #8  
Old April 8th 20, 07:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:41:36 PM UTC+1, Magnus wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:31:13 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:04:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
Did you consider a Diana 2-FES? Mine delivers this month.
I chose it because it's a proven performing 15m glider, and it has the proven electric FES system. I don't want to be a test pilot for a new system with bugs.

I didn't place my order until I confirmed the performance figures myself and flew it to evaluate the handling, I would not trust any predicted/calculated numbers.


Are the Diana 2 FES and Lak 17B FES officially "self starters" - i.e. self-launchers as are the GP 15 and the Mini-LAK? Please correct me if I am wrong but I wasn't aware that they are other than self-sustainers, although I believe self-launching is unofficially possible in the right wind/runway/weight conditions.


LAK 17B FES is a sustainer but the new 17C FES is claimed as a self-starter (as miniLAK) with higher landing gear for propeller clearance, stronger FES, different aerodynamicall configuration of wings and fuselage according to LAK. For the Diana 2 FES I don't know.


Thank you for enlightening me Magnus. I didn't see that one on the LAK website.
  #9  
Old April 8th 20, 07:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

If you register the Diana 2 as an ultralight, you can self launch. There's Diana 2's delivered and flying in France in this configuration.
If you register it as EASA CS-22, you cannot (legally). I'm told it's easier for them to get the initial TC through as a sustainer.

For self-launch under CS-22 you need 23cm of propeller clearance with the main wheel fully deflated. I believe both the Mini-LAK and the Silent 2 operate outside of CS-22 as microlights or otherwise if you want to use them for self launching.

It sounds like LAK is trying to get the 17C through on CS-22 for self launch with a modified landing gear to get that required clearance. I hope they'll be successful and others will follow.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:41:36 PM UTC+1, Magnus wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:31:13 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:04:43 PM UTC+1, wrote:
Did you consider a Diana 2-FES? Mine delivers this month.
I chose it because it's a proven performing 15m glider, and it has the proven electric FES system. I don't want to be a test pilot for a new system with bugs.

I didn't place my order until I confirmed the performance figures myself and flew it to evaluate the handling, I would not trust any predicted/calculated numbers.


Are the Diana 2 FES and Lak 17B FES officially "self starters" - i.e. self-launchers as are the GP 15 and the Mini-LAK? Please correct me if I am wrong but I wasn't aware that they are other than self-sustainers, although I believe self-launching is unofficially possible in the right wind/runway/weight conditions.


LAK 17B FES is a sustainer but the new 17C FES is claimed as a self-starter (as miniLAK) with higher landing gear for propeller clearance, stronger FES, different aerodynamicall configuration of wings and fuselage according to LAK. For the Diana 2 FES I don't know.

  #10  
Old April 8th 20, 08:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Best option for electric self starting glider

Minilak is cs22 glider, not ultralight.
 




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