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#21
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Glider pricing
Ernie Schweizer was heard to say that production costs
could be calculated from the empty weight. At 14:54 24 October 2006, Bill Daniels wrote: 'Chris Rollings' wrote in message ... Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point. 'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)' Performance varies with the square root of wing-span; price varies with the square of wing-span. The first is aerodynamically correct. The second is market observation. The cost of materials varies by the weight of the bare airframe. All else like instruments are the same for all gliders. Labor for a given production technique probably related to surface area. The biggest determinant of the final price is production volume. Or, more correctly, the volume anticipated at the start of production. If a manufacturer knew from the start that the final production numbers would exceed say, 3000 gliders, investments in labor saving tooling would make sense. This, in turn, would increase the production run yet more since lower prices would eintice still more buyers. But of course, how do you know you are going to produce a lot of gliders? Bill Daniels |
#22
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
It depends what you want the glider for...
Discus 2a – Definitely the best performer but you pay the price in comfort. I am 6 foot 2 inches and have to wear thin shoes and no jersey if I want to close the canopy. You need 200 hours in it before you start to get it to perform. Discus 2b – Next best performer… and good for the larger American. Again, you need 200 hours in it before you get it to perform primarily because you have to learn exactly how much to slip it in the climb. LS8 - Next best performer after the D2b. You don’t have to learn how to fly it and it’s roomy. However, it pushes your toes together if you are tall which gives you sore knees – this is not a problem for most but a very serious problem for some. ASW28 – Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it’s performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. However, it’s VERY crashworthy which is excellent. Discus (1) – you can’t compare it with the above gliders for performance, particularly at high wing loadings. If you want to become a serious competition pilot buy a D2. If you want an excellent performing glider that is easy to fly buy an LS8 (but check it doesn’t give you sore knees first). Don’t buy an ASW28 if you are interested in competitions or if you crash often. By the way – there is no such thing as D2x. The changes on the V2x were basically a retro fit of the D2 advancements to the V2. Cheers, Ben At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote: How do these two gliders compare to one another? Is there a Discus 2x? How does the original compare in todays competition world, LS8, Discus 2, ASW-28. Does the oringinal Discus give away any performance to the current crop of gliders. Interesting to note that the LS8 is an LS6 with fixed flaps, therefore, it is still of the same generation of the oringinal Discus, or is it?! |
#23
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy |
#24
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Andy wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations. A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm “It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide." From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close. just my 2c worth... For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben Flewett. http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183 http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett http://www.gliding.co.nz/ |
#25
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)?? Just my 3c worth.... Robert Bruce Greef wrote: Andy wrote: Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations. A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm “It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide." From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close. just my 2c worth... For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben Flewett. http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183 http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett http://www.gliding.co.nz/ |
#26
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
On 25 Oct 2006 14:27:33 GMT, Ben Flewett
wrote: It depends what you want the glider for... Plus the type of weather in which you're flying most of the time. ASW28 – Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it’s performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. However, it’s VERY crashworthy which is excellent. If you fly your glider in weak lift conditions most of the time, the picture will be a complete different one. Additional advantages of the ASW28 are better visibility from the cockpit and a much better overall finish than the D2 and LS8. BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can fill oceans with second hand LS8 and D2. If you´re looking for a ASW28, look have a look at: http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/asw28/ ;-) |
#27
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Robert Danewid wrote: Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially for SS)?? Just my 3c worth.... Robert Bruce Greef wrote: Andy wrote: Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations. A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm "It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide." From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close. just my 2c worth... For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben Flewett. http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183 http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett http://www.gliding.co.nz/ |
#28
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Robert Danewid wrote: Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially for SS)?? Just my 3c worth.... Robert Bruce Greef wrote: Andy wrote: Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations. A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm "It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide." From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close. just my 2c worth... For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben Flewett. http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183 http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett http://www.gliding.co.nz/ |
#29
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Robert Danewid wrote: Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially for SS)?? Just my 3c worth.... Robert Bruce Greef wrote: Andy wrote: Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations. A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm "It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide." From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close. just my 2c worth... For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben Flewett. http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183 http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett http://www.gliding.co.nz/ |
#30
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Why has nobody included in any comparisons the Diana 2, Lak 17 and 19, SZD-56-2, and the 304CZ (or any other Eastern European products of comparable performance I might have missed) - maybe about 10k-20k cheaper than the German sailplanes so far discussed in this thread? Chris N. (Vested interest - Lak 17 owner) |
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