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GPS interference and contests
It seems as if GPS interference testing is becoming more widespread.
See: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/gpsno...terference.pdf I wonder if anyone has thought of what might happen if one of these 'tests' happened near the time an place of a sechduled contest. Basically, you would lose all GPS systems including loggers. Back to photos? Anyone thinking about contingencies? Bill Daniels |
#2
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GPS interference and contests
Bill Daniels wrote:
It seems as if GPS interference testing is becoming more widespread. See: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/gpsno...terference.pdf I wonder if anyone has thought of what might happen if one of these 'tests' happened near the time an place of a sechduled contest. Basically, you would lose all GPS systems including loggers. Back to photos? Anyone thinking about contingencies? This schedule covers days when someone thinks they might want to run a test, in practice, there are somewhat fewer live tests. The contest staffs here check NOTAMs daily, if there is notice of a test, they'd task away from the affected area, or cancel the day if not possible. I have an IGC file (which I'd be hard pressed to find) from a day when there was a NOTAMed test at China Lake (roughly 200 miles to the south of my location), not much to see, except for a few gaps of a couple of minutes each... Marc |
#3
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GPS interference and contests
On Jan 17, 9:28 am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: It seems as if GPS interference testing is becoming more widespread. As Marc noted, China Lake have been conducting these tests for a while. It started out mostly on weekdays, bur Saturdays are possible too. Several of us have logged flights with holes in them, some quite large. It does not put a hole in the pressure altitude trace, but may eliminate your turnpoint. That's the only concern. One flight last year I was able to campare notes with pilots flying out of Minden, while I was just North of China Lake. The Minden pilots had no interference, but my signal was really broken up. The Cambridge gear seemed to come online rapidly afterwards, but WinPilot had to be restarted to give me any useful information (I knew the winds were not at 80 or 90 knots for example) Watching these logs on SeeYou is interesting. The glider stops, hovers up and down for a while, then shoots forward 5 miles or so. Jim |
#4
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GPS interference and contests
On Jan 17, 2:25*pm, JS wrote:
On Jan 17, 9:28 am, Marc Ramsey wrote: Bill Daniels wrote: It seems as if GPS interference testing is becoming more widespread. * As Marc noted, China Lake have been conducting these tests for a while. It started out mostly on weekdays, Bill and all, Yes, this has been reality in the US for several years. I managed to warn the 1-26 Nationals about 3 seasons ago, when they faced blanking/testing for their national contest from Moriarty, NM. I offered guidance for conversations, and they worked wtih the staff at White Sands to adjust the local tests to be prior to launch/flight/ task times. Otherwise, you are right. Achieving turns could only have been verified by cameras, again. I raised the discussion to IGC level, about the possibility of world record attempts (which are possible from my site) having pre-launch authorization possible for antiquated validation/recording devices ( analog equipment!), but was pooh-poohed as not having an authentic concern. At that point in time, we were hosting the Perlan glider with Fossett/Enevoldsen and it was a VERY real concern for us. And it still is. We are fortunate to have a close working relationship, and know on any given week if jamming will occur for the following calendar week, locally. It adds to the flight planning considerations. I can have world class weather, military airspace permission and IGC approved recording devices, and have a data file that is worthless for record documentation. So, yes, we have tried for contingency planning. They work, within the US. And yes, your SSA airspace and technical folks ARE trying to serve glider pilot interests in the larger sense. Cindy Brickner Region 12 Director SSA Airspace Committee |
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GPS interference and contests
On Jan 17, 7:53 pm, CindyB wrote:
I raised the discussion to IGC level, snip I can have world class weather, military airspace permission and IGC approved recording devices, and have a data file that is worthless for record documentation. So, yes, we have tried for contingency planning. They work, within the US. And yes, your SSA airspace and technical folks ARE trying to serve glider pilot interests in the larger sense. Cindy Brickner Is it worthwhile for us to keep carrying cameras and barographs to have ammunition that might convince IGC that this IS an authentic concern? Or maybe ask the Navy to jam GPS near a European contest? :- P I agree, the baro part of the logger SHOULD be uninterrupted, making the more painful camera operations critical in showing the case to IGC. I hope that we're not becoming "Logger Cripples" (unable to function without GPS, Logger, SeeYou, etc.). I'm planning to keep flying with my backup Replogle and camera -- but then I'm semi-old-fashioned and a 1-26 driver (some read that "masochist"). Isn't the chief function of the camera to validate rounding the turnpoint (second being documenting the declaration)? Several years ago, the 1-26 Association Sweepstakes did away the requirement that turnpoints be "photo friendly" (i.e., the turnpoint had to be a feature that could be recognized by photo, leveling the playing field for those that used cameras instead of GPS's). Similarly, it was just recently that the 1-26 Championships REQUIRED GPS for the contest, mainly in a bid to reduce the costs (both time and money) generated by film development. Years ago, my camera & barograph saved my Diamond Goal flight when I fat-fingered an error in the lat-lon of the first turnpoint for the logger declaration (though I'd still whine about the Volkslogger's "comfortable DOS interface"). Many contest and world class pilots have recommended carrying TWO loggers, for the eventual day when one of them fails. Unfortunately, in the Jammed GPS environment, one "failure" would render both loggers unusable (especially at the turnpoint). We as pilots should be able to see this -- matching the out the window expectation with the GPS indicated arrival of the turnpoint. Even though I'm a 1-26'er, I enjoy the training and entertainment value of loggers and software...and the compelling and "crippling" moving map display on the PDA. As the seminar title suggests, "help, my GPS sucked my brains out!" Thanks for carrying the torch to IGC, even if they're pooh-poohing the issue. -Pete #309 |
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GPS interference and contests
309 wrote:
Is it worthwhile for us to keep carrying cameras and barographs to have ammunition that might convince IGC that this IS an authentic concern? Or maybe ask the Navy to jam GPS near a European contest? :- P I'm curious, what exactly are you expecting the IGC or anyone else to do? Are you really carrying a camera just in case someone randomly decides to run a jamming test while you're in the midst of a world record attempt? Marc |
#7
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GPS interference and contests
snip
I have an IGC file (which I'd be hard pressed to find) from a day when there was a NOTAMed test at China Lake (roughly 200 miles to the south of my location), not much to see, except for a few gaps of a couple of minutes each... Marc One of my former students was flying to an airport in the China Lake area and navigating primarily by GPS during one of the Notamed times. He had noted the Notam but didn't think much of it until the GPS showed him as arrived and there was no airport. After fumbling with the map for a few minutes he figured out the airport was about 5 miles away from where the GPS said it was. Brian CFIIG/ASEL |
#8
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GPS interference and contests
Big problem is proving that you didn't break airspace...
Very hard to do with a camera & barometer! |
#9
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GPS interference and contests
Even though this thread is related to GPS jamming affecting contest
flight documentation, please allow me this little rant. GPS navigation is now fully accepted in the US and there are even some instrument approaches based upon GPS. Now I ask, NOTAMS or not, why should it be legal for ANYONE to jam a system which is used in air navigation? Pilots who are fortunate not to live/fly near a military installation who jam these signals can enjoy the system. The rest of us have to put up with unreliable/intermittent use. Is this an issue that the AOPA and the SSA should try to address? Paul Bill Daniels wrote: It seems as if GPS interference testing is becoming more widespread. See: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/gpsno...terference.pdf I wonder if anyone has thought of what might happen if one of these 'tests' happened near the time an place of a sechduled contest. Basically, you would lose all GPS systems including loggers. Back to photos? Anyone thinking about contingencies? Bill Daniels |
#10
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GPS interference and contests
Now I ask, NOTAMS or not, why should it be legal for ANYONE to jam a system which is used in air navigation? The US military own it, they can jam it or turn it off just as they please. No law to prevent them. Mike |
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