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tso altimeter



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 7th 10, 05:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,100
Default tso altimeter

On Dec 7, 9:31*am, "Tim Mara" wrote:
If it is for use with a Transponder then the TSO is a
requirement....Transponders are TSO (only) installations and the requirement
for the TSO also is in connection with the altimeter....providing it is for
altitude reporting transponders (mode C)
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website


I've already pojnted to the FARs ti clarify both main points but you
seem to be disagreeing so can you point to a FAR to substantiate
either claim here? So again/in more detail...

Transponders themselves are strictly a "meets the performance and
environmental requirements of TSO blah" see 14CFR 91.215 so it is
technically up to the person signing off the installation to determine
this. Which has allowed transponders without TSO approval to be
installed. But most shops will say that will only install a
Transponder with TSO approval. But this us really not relevant to the
original question.

For non-IFR aircraft I do not believe adding a transponder requires
the altimeter to be TSOed. See my earlier post and the FARs quoted
there.

If you want to disagree please quote the relevant FARs.

Darryl
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  #12  
Old December 7th 10, 06:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
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Posts: 1,565
Default tso altimeter

On Dec 7, 10:56*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:31*am, "Tim Mara" wrote:

If it is for use with a Transponder then the TSO is a
requirement....Transponders are TSO (only) installations and the requirement
for the TSO also is in connection with the altimeter....providing it is for
altitude reporting transponders (mode C)
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website


I've already pojnted to the FARs ti clarify both main points but you
seem to be disagreeing so can you point to a FAR to substantiate
either claim here? So again/in more detail...

Transponders themselves are strictly a "meets the performance and
environmental requirements of TSO blah" see 14CFR 91.215 so it is
technically up to the person signing off the installation to determine
this. Which has allowed transponders without TSO approval to be
installed. But most shops will say that will only install a
Transponder with TSO approval. But this us really not relevant to the
original question.

For non-IFR aircraft I do not believe adding a transponder requires
the altimeter to be TSOed. See my earlier post and the FARs quoted
there.

If you want to disagree please quote the relevant FARs.

Darryl


I agree that installation of a transponder implies no requirement for
a TSO compliant altimeter. It does, however, seem to impose a
requirement for a TSO compliant altitude encoder or a TSO complaint
altimeter with an encoder output. Maybe that's where the confusion
comes from. Of course the TSO the encoder is required to comply with
is C88a not C10b.


So Tim now seems to be on the hook for two things:

1. The regulatory requirement for a TSO compliant altimeter and
2. Substantiation that the Winter 4FGH40 is TSO compliant.

As the owner of an 4FGH40 who is considering installing a transponder
this winter I look forward to that information with interest.

Andy
  #13  
Old December 7th 10, 07:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,100
Default tso altimeter

On Dec 7, 9:56*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:31*am, "Tim Mara" wrote:

If it is for use with a Transponder then the TSO is a
requirement....Transponders are TSO (only) installations and the requirement
for the TSO also is in connection with the altimeter....providing it is for
altitude reporting transponders (mode C)
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website


I've already pojnted to the FARs ti clarify both main points but you
seem to be disagreeing so can you point to a FAR to substantiate
either claim here? So again/in more detail...

Transponders themselves are strictly a "meets the performance and
environmental requirements of TSO blah" see 14CFR 91.215 so it is
technically up to the person signing off the installation to determine
this. Which has allowed transponders without TSO approval to be
installed. But most shops will say that will only install a
Transponder with TSO approval. But this us really not relevant to the
original question.

For non-IFR aircraft I do not believe adding a transponder requires
the altimeter to be TSOed. See my earlier post and the FARs quoted
there.

If you want to disagree please quote the relevant FARs.

Darryl


Bzzzttt I've got to shoot myself here for getting missing the critical
regulation....

14CFR §91.217 Data correspondence between automatically reported
pressure altitude data and the pilot's altitude reference.

(a) No person may operate any automatic pressure altitude reporting
equipment associated with a radar beacon transponder—
....
(3) Unless the altimeters and digitizers in that equipment meet the
standards of TSO-C10b and TSO-C88, respectively.

---

But again its a "meet the standards of" wording, so that leaves some
wiggle room, but up to the person signing off the install. IFR
aircraft get linked in with stronger worded requirements via 91.411
that an allow an actual TSO approval and date of manufacture to used
instead of an IFR altimeter test--thats the only thing stronger than
"meet the standards of" wording I can find. But again many shops will
take that to mean the product must be manufactured under an actual TSO
approval.


Darryl
  #14  
Old December 7th 10, 07:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jcarlyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 522
Default tso altimeter

Andy,

Maybe I can help.

Winter uses two different nomenclatures. The 4 FGH 40 altimeter is
also known as the 4555 (download the Winter Bordgerate catalog, and
you'll see). You can see on the Products page that the 4555 has an
EASA Form One. Here's the tricky bit - I have the older JAA Form One,
and on it under remarks it says the 4555 has TS 10.220/48, which is
equivalent to TSO C10b.

For what it's worth, I have a transponder and the shop was happy with
my 4 FGH 40 during the data equivalence checks.

-John


On Dec 7, 1:40 pm, Andy wrote:
2. Substantiation that the Winter 4FGH40 is TSO compliant.

As the owner of an 4FGH40 who is considering installing a transponder
this winter I look forward to that information with interest.

  #15  
Old December 7th 10, 09:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default tso altimeter

On Dec 7, 12:41*pm, jcarlyle wrote:
Here's the tricky bit - I have the older JAA Form One,
and on it under remarks it says the 4555 has TS 10.220/48, which is
equivalent to TSO C10b.


My research indicates that the European equivalent of TSO C10b is ETSO-
C10b. I have searched for "TS 10.220/48" but can't find it anywhere.
Can you tell us how you know TS 10.220/48 is equivalent to TSO C10b.
Not saying it isn't, but would like to have a reference.

thanks,

Andy
  #16  
Old December 7th 10, 10:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
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Posts: 195
Default tso altimeter

Andy wrote:
Can you tell us how you know TS 10.220/48 is equivalent to TSO C10b.


According to the DG 1000 "Wartungshandbuch" TS 10.220/48 is not the TSO
number, but the "Kennblatt number" of the 4 FGH 40, i.e. the instrument
specifications sheet number (I don't know the correct English name of
that thing). The TSO number is written on that sheet (among other things).
  #17  
Old December 7th 10, 10:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default tso altimeter

On Dec 7, 3:12*pm, John Smith wrote:

The TSO number is written on that sheet (among other things).


Are you saying you have looked at TS 10.220/48 and that it specifies
compliance with ETSO-C10b? I can't find any reference to a TSO on
the instrument specification sheet that was provided with my
altimeter.

Normally if an equipment or instrument is TSO compliant the
manufacturer doesn't hide that fact. It's usually obviously declared
on the specification sheet and any marketing brochures.

Andy
  #18  
Old December 7th 10, 10:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default tso altimeter

Andy wrote:
The TSO number is written on that sheet (among other things).


Are you saying you have looked at TS 10.220/48 and that it specifies
compliance with ETSO-C10b?


No. I'm saying that I have seen such "Kennblätter" of other instruments
before and I'm just explaining the meaning of the number TS 10.220/48.

I've already suggested in an earlier post that you ask directly Winter.
They have an email address.
  #19  
Old December 7th 10, 10:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default tso altimeter

On Dec 7, 3:26*pm, John Smith wrote:
Andy wrote:
The TSO number is written on that sheet (among other things).


Are you saying you have looked at TS 10.220/48 and that it specifies
compliance with ETSO-C10b?


No. I'm saying that I have seen such "Kennbl tter" of other instruments
before and I'm just explaining the meaning of the number TS 10.220/48.

I've already suggested in an earlier post that you ask directly Winter.
They have an email address.


Ok, thanks for the input on TS 10.220/48!

Andy
  #20  
Old December 7th 10, 11:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jcarlyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 522
Default tso altimeter

Andy,

I was getting that equivalence from my LS8 manual and the JAA Form
One, and it isn't straight forward.

Go to this site: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Data/Ma...-maint-man.pdf
and look on page 6-1. They list 3 Winter altimeters, each with a TS
10.220/xx designation which they title TCDS No., and then they say "or
other Altimeters approved according to TSO, JTSO or ETSO for use in
aircraft...A similar FAA approved altimeter to meet TSO C10...may be
used." This descriptor (TS 10.220/xx) is only used in DG and Stemme
flight manuals, as far as I can tell.

On the JAA Form One for my 4 FGH 40 altimeter, the designation TS
10.220/48 appears in Block 13. In Block 14 the Airworthiness box is
checked, and the words "Certifies that the part identified above
except as otherwise specified in Block 13 was manufactured in
accordance with the applicable design documents and with the
airworthiness regulations of the stated country" describe Block 14.

This of course is all circumstantial. No where on the Winter
Bordgerate site can I find a TSO mentioned, nor do they use the TS
10.220/xx designator anywhere on their site.

Just to add more fun, for my Becker AR 4201 transceiver the JAA Form
One gives JTSO 2C37d and 2C38d in the description in Block 7. In Block
13 it lists LBA O.10.911/87. The LS8 manual cited above lists similar
10.911/xx designators for other radios, and adds the words "or other
radios approved according to TSO, JTSO or ETSO for use in aircraft".

The common use of the 10.yyy/xx designator makes me suspect this
describes a design document that supercedes or incorporates the
relevant TSO. But of course, that's a guess, primarily based upon DG
associating such a designator with a TSO.

-John




On Dec 7, 4:51 pm, Andy wrote:
My research indicates that the European equivalent of TSO C10b is ETSO-
C10b. I have searched for "TS 10.220/48" but can't find it anywhere.
Can you tell us how you know TS 10.220/48 is equivalent to TSO C10b.
Not saying it isn't, but would like to have a reference.

 




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