Hold at VOR for 2v2

Ron Rosenfeld wrote in message . ..
On 20 May 2004 23:13:28 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?


I think the reason that there all these answers is that it does
not matter.

The commentator who said make all turns on the holding pattern side
gave accurate guidance. Look at the terrain and guess why they put the hold
on the east side.

There are a lot of miles between the holding fix and the faf. And
all of it is clear for you.

So getting established can't be much of a factor. I'd turn most directly
to intercept 345 inbound from wherever in the hold I got the approach
clearance.

Maneuvering south of Jeffco seems to be specifically prohibited by
the remark.

Since you don't get to review every decision on the internet while
flying the approach, wisest is to confer with ATC over what you are
going to do when in doubt.

Regards, Bill Hale -- who used to be based at 2v2 when you shot the
ils into FNL then scud ran over KLMO broadcast station and let down into
2v2. -- not a charted procedure...

Bill Hale wrote:

Since you don't get to review every decision on the internet while
flying the approach, wisest is to confer with ATC over what you are
going to do when in doubt.

ATC separates aircraft; they don't interpret instrument procedures.

Something is lacking in some pilots training to not understand the ideal is to treat major course changes as
flyby waypoints, not flyover waypoints. The only flyover waypoint is a charted flyover waypoint; and there
aren't any of those on VOR approaches.

wrote in message ...
Bill Hale wrote:

Since you don't get to review every decision on the internet while
flying the approach, wisest is to confer with ATC over what you are
going to do when in doubt.

ATC separates aircraft; they don't interpret instrument procedures.

So in clearing what you are going to do, you ensure that you do not
create a separation problem. That would be about all the controller
would care about. Going south of JEFFCO might create such a problem.

Something is lacking in some pilots training to not understand the ideal is to treat major course changes as
flyby waypoints, not flyover waypoints. The only flyover waypoint is a charted flyover waypoint; and there
aren't any of those on VOR approaches.

You are definitely right on this. I have no idea what you are talking
about.

Bill Hale

Something is lacking in some pilots training to not understand the
ideal is to treat major course changes as flyby waypoints, not flyover
waypoints.

This goes back to a question I had a while back about "Complete
Reversal."

To me the question is how to give a student a criteria for leading
turns on an instrument approach. I can't tell from TERPS whether this
was ever intended; it does suggest that the framers assumed that
navaids would be flown over, rather than by.

The AIM says to lead turns on airways, but I have found no FAA
justification to lead turns on instrument approaches.

So the questions arise:
1) is it *always* safe to lead turns?,
2) is it *legal*?, and
3) will it pass checkrides?

Greg Esres wrote:
To me the question is how to give a student a criteria for leading
turns on an instrument approach. I can't tell from TERPS whether this
was ever intended; it does suggest that the framers assumed that
navaids would be flown over, rather than by.

I think that assumption was based on how most navaids work. You don't
really know you're over a VOR until you get a full TO/FROM flip. Even
with DME, slant range makes it pretty difficult to calculate leads for
turns. You're at 9000 MSL, the elevation of the VORTAC isn't even
published, but you can guess it's about 1000 MSL, your true airspeed is
170 kts, you've got a 30 kt left-quartering tailwind, and you need to
make a 70 degree turn to the right; quick, at what DME readout should
you start your turn?

The GPS I fly with works all those numbers (OK, it doesn't know the
wind, but it does know my groundspeed, and uses horizontal distance
instead of slant), gives me an audible "boing" and a 10-second countdown
to "turn now", and if I zoom the map in far enough, even draws me a nice
magenta curved line on the screen to follow.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...

You're at 9000 MSL, the elevation of the VORTAC isn't even
published, but you can guess it's about 1000 MSL,

Lousy guess, field elevation at BJC is 6012 or thereabouts.

(Doug) wrote in message . com...

So I am in the hold at the BJC VOR for the VOR DME approach to 2v2.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0405/09041VDA.PDF

At what point do I leave the hold and intercept the 345 radial?

At the VOR? Or at the end of the outbound leg?



The hold at the BJC VOR/DME is the missed approach holding point. If
you're in the hold there you've already flown the approach and missed.
How did you get on the BJC R-345 the first time?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

You're at 9000 MSL, the elevation of the VORTAC isn't even
published, but you can guess it's about 1000 MSL, your true airspeed is
170 kts, you've got a 30 kt left-quartering tailwind, and you need to
make a 70 degree turn to the right; quick, at what DME readout should
you start your turn?


VOR site elevations are published in the Airport/Facility Directory.
Elevation at BJC VOR/DME is 5734 MSL.

1) is it *always* safe to lead turns?,
2) is it *legal*?, and
3) will it pass checkrides?


Nothing is "always" safe. However, if when you lead the turn you are within
the positional tolerance of both the initial and final courses, yes, I think
it's safe (and preferred).

I know of no rule that makes it illegal to do so

Whether it passes checkrides depends on whether the check pilot has the same
take on it.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

I think that assumption was based on how most navaids work.

Oh, no doubt. One might be led to think that there is more protected
area on the other side (where you overshoot the navaid) than on the
side from which you're approaching. I vaguely recall seeing that was
true in the enoute segment in certain circumstances (don't hold me to
this), but was NOT true in the approach segment.

at what DME readout should you start your turn?

Exactly. And even if *I* could do it, can I expect a student to be as
proficient at it or understand the nuances as to when it should be
applied? An instrument pilot shouldn't have to be a TERPS expert to
fly safely.

I think it more prudent to hand a student a set of simple rules that
will always work, which is why I'm uncomfortable recommending leading
turns on non-GPS approaches. I think it's OK, but I can't *prove* it.

The GPS I fly with works all those numbers (OK, it doesn't know
the

With GPS, different story. I presume that following any lead provided
is both safe and legal.