Verifying flap retraction

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

If you use the
appropriate departure airspeed for 0 degrees of flaps when you actually have 20
degrees down, the climb rate (or lack thereof) could be a problem.

In a Cessna if you try to use a zero flap airspeed with flaps 20 you
will wonder why you have to hold it on the ground to keep it from
flying. Having the flaps stuck at 20 is no emergency.



The longer it
takes you to realize it, the closer the trees get.

In a Cessna you will shoot over those trees with no problem.

I think the question might have been:

Does the flap position indicator move even if you have a flap motor (or
whatever) failure resulting in no movement by the flaps?




"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my friend
found out.

--

Roger Long



"Ray" wrote in message
...
What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side
of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is
there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps
go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and
go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety
as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

There is a second pointer on the post 1976 Cessna selectors which follows
the lever you move. It is actuated by a push pull cable attached to the
flap cables. It's hard to envision any way it could move with out the flaps
moving. The cables would need to have broken in which case all the flapping
and banging would probably alert you the fact that you had a much bigger
problem.

--

Roger Long



"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
I think the question might have been:

Does the flap position indicator move even if you have a flap motor (or
whatever) failure resulting in no movement by the flaps?




"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

If you can train yourself to hear the noise, that's probably as good as
taking a look. It's easy to miss the absence of noise though as my
friend
found out.

--

Roger Long



"Ray" wrote in message
...
What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left
side
of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar
still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running
every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is
there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself
climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps
go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and
go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety
as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

emove (AJW) wrote in message ...

One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

Well, exactly what would you do about it if you're flying a missed approach or
a touch and go and found your flaps had not retracted?

For what it's worth, I somehow don't find climbing out with flaps extended as
scary a prospect as having a pilot not recognize when the aircraft is close to
stall.

The plane is certified to climb with full flaps. That's one of the
reasons Cessna changed from 40 degree to just 30 degree for the 172.

-Robert, CFI

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

The plane is certified to climb with full flaps.

Not very well and not at all at high density altitudes.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

In a Cessna if you try to use a zero flap airspeed with flaps 20 you
will wonder why you have to hold it on the ground to keep it from
flying. Having the flaps stuck at 20 is no emergency.


Neither is having a door pop open but, look how many pilots that has killed.
Anything you are not prepared to deal with is a hazard.

Not checking retraction of flaps at 20 degrees is pretty far down the list
of dangers. However, not being in the habit of checking bumps it way up
when you use 30 or 40 in a tight spot.

--

Roger Long

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

Are you sure the indicator will move if the flaps are not moving? On
the 206 that indicator is driven by a cable off the flaps and only moves
if the flaps are moving.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...

Neither is having a door pop open but, look how many pilots that has
killed.

Roger Long

I just proved that to myself today. Took off with the upper latch undone on
the Archer. Decided to go on to the next airport (five miles) and land
there to fix it. Got distracted and forgot the boost pump in the pattern.
Not a disaster, but I demonstrated to myself that a door open can be more of
a distraction than I had thought. Doh!

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

One of us got this backwards

What I was saying is: The pointer bar is a reliable indicator that the flaps
are moving. Unless the very lightly loaded follow up cable snaps, it is
extremely unlikely that the pointer could move without the flaps moving.
The pointer is directly connected to the flap cables.

--

Roger Long



"Dale" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Yes, the little metal bar moves. I'm going to put painting it red on my
list. Still, looking at a big thing out side the plane as opposed to a
little thing down on the panel seems safer to me.

Are you sure the indicator will move if the flaps are not moving? On
the 206 that indicator is driven by a cable off the flaps and only moves
if the flaps are moving.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

BT

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long