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Next glider, ownership costs question?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 20th 17, 07:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.
  #12  
Old November 20th 17, 05:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
flgliderpilot[_2_]
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 1:59:49 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.


Of course fiberglass is easy to repair and easy to maintain, but I'm asking about the costs of having a certified aircraft mechanic do that work, and if it's more expensive than riveting aluminum and stretching fabric.

Fiberglass involves layup and lots of sanding, dealing with sanding dust, following with gel coat, polishing, etc.

I imagine that to be more expensive but maybe it's cheaper. It's not the material, it's the hours involved.
  #13  
Old November 20th 17, 06:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

My feeling, fabric or aluminum repairs can be done in a number of places in almost any state in the US, composite repairs are more limited, thus more expensive. Same likely goes for the rest of the world.

Within a region, prices vary based on where you are. Major areas are likely more expensive labor.
Then you get into the finish, you want "OK" or "as good as new"?

So, where are you and what level of finish do you want? Sorta like painting a car, you can go and paint applied that looks good from 10' for not much but looks horrid up close.
I will "assume" the quality of the structure is fine in many places, the final finish can be more depending on what you want.
  #14  
Old November 20th 17, 06:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Williams
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-6, flgliderpilot wrote:
On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 1:59:49 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
We have had glassfiber gliders for 60 years but you can still actually ask if that material (developed by witches and black magic) is repairable or costly to maintain.


Of course fiberglass is easy to repair and easy to maintain, but I'm asking about the costs of having a certified aircraft mechanic do that work, and if it's more expensive than riveting aluminum and stretching fabric.

Fiberglass involves layup and lots of sanding, dealing with sanding dust, following with gel coat, polishing, etc.

I imagine that to be more expensive but maybe it's cheaper. It's not the material, it's the hours involved.


There seem to be as many value/cost opinions as there are pilots. You ask if there is a difference in maintenance cost between vintage materials and state of the art (well almost, Carbon etc excepted) materials.
Here are a couple of thoughts,

First I believe that any hobby/sport requires an certain amount of investment.
This investment is complicated and multifaceted, not only time away from family, but job time, to earn that green and folding, and personal energy including maintaining enthusiasm. The rewards of flying gliders must justify these expenditures.
In your original post, you stated former ownership of an 1-26E.
during the time you owned that ship, did you ever wish for more? Or were you always content with it and it's performance? I would guess if you were always content, you would be happy with a 1-26E again.
However, your O.P. implies that you are interested in more. More in this case would seem to require glass.

Here I purposefully exclude vintage high performance wood, for no other reason than they can be maintenance Hogs, and commercial wooden aircraft repairmen are a thing of the past.

I believe that fiberglass 'routine maintenance' is both less comprehensive and cheaper. Much less comprehensive compared to tube and fabric, and maybe a little less that monocoque aluminum construction, (ignoring possible corrosion)

Fiberglass ships, if not damaged, seem to go on forever. Gelcoatings, not so much.

I think the question of which is cheaper to repair 'after damage' could be considered 'moot', Very, very few gliders are damaged, even fewer are repaired after major damage. One could rather ask, How much insurance should I carry on this glider?, as the main consideration seems to be what percentage of the value of the glider results in a 'total loss'

In my experience, deciding what will make you happy is much more difficult than actually obtaining that thing.

Best of Luck,
Scott, Standard Cirrus, SHK, 1-26E, 2-33A.

  #15  
Old November 20th 17, 09:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 11:03:11 AM UTC-5, flgliderpilot wrote:
Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).

My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!

My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.

Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?

Easily damaged on rough landouts?

Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?

Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?

Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?

I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).

As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks
Tom


Your budget, as you note, pretty much limits you to a good 1-26, or an older bottom of the range glass ship.
Some other considerations related to your choice. Would you tie the 1-26 out?
If so, it gets wear and tear, but is ready to fly immediately with no assembly required. Sometimes I fly my 1-26 when I don't feel like assembling one of my glass ships.
You can have a lot of fun with either choice.
Any glass ship bought for 10K or so and insured as such will be insured such that it will easily reach the point of not being economically repairable while having relatively minor damage. This threshold is about 70%, sometimes less, of insured value.
This could happen with the 1-26 but is not as likely given that parts are readily available and most repairs can be done by a skilled A&P locally.
Consider the idea of buying a 1-26(E preferred) and flying for 2 or 3 years while you build experience, get some off field landings in your log book, and save some bucks for the next step.
Good luck and have some fun
UH
1-26, Std Libelle, ASG-29
  #16  
Old November 21st 17, 01:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Giaco
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

You could also consider an HP-11, 14, or 18.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Tr...ding_Post.html

I thought about a 1-26 as my first ship due to budget, but could not have been happier with the decision to get an HP-14 instead. Performance nearly as good as a Libelle, with the ability to land shorter than in a 1-26.

The other option is to find a partner or two looking for a $10k buy-in. Then your costs are shared, you have people to talk to who know your ship specifically, and its easier to move up down the road if you so choose.
  #17  
Old November 21st 17, 02:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

Went from a 1-26 to ASW-19. Loved the 1-26, but the fun to dollars ratio on the 19 can’t be beat. Try looking at the 19, standard cirrus or libelle.
  #18  
Old November 21st 17, 02:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

I guess we are spoiled at Moriarty, with two highly qualified and proficient composite repair shops on the airport: One Air Composites LLC (Fidel Ramirez) and Composite Aircraft Repair LLC (Robert Mudd).

Always lots of trailers with out-of-state license plates in front of both facilities.
  #19  
Old November 21st 17, 10:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

On Monday, November 20, 2017 at 3:14:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
...
Any glass ship bought for 10K or so and insured as such will be insured such that it will easily reach the point of not being economically repairable while having relatively minor damage. This threshold is about 70%, sometimes less, of insured value.


That's just a characteristic of owning an inexpensive glider, the insurance is not to blame. If it does get "totalled" but you want to fix it anyway (perhaps work over time on it, contributing labor under a mechanic's supervision), you can buy the wreck from the insurance. E.g., insured value $10K, and "totaled", the insurance pays you the $10K and takes away the carcass.. Alternatively, if they think the carcass is worth $2K, they pay you $10K-$2K=$8K. Or they might offer to pay you $7K if that's the estimated cost of fixing it. Either way you get to keep it.

Of course, if it's worth more than you bought it for, then insure it for what it's worth (to you). You'll then pay a higher premium, but will get a bigger payment if it's totaled.

The trailer may be a large part of the "worth" if the glider is cheap.

  #20  
Old November 22nd 17, 05:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
LongJourney
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Default Next glider, ownership costs question?

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 10:03:11 AM UTC-6, flgliderpilot wrote:
Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).

My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!

My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.

Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?

Easily damaged on rough landouts?

Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?

Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?

Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?

I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).

As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks
Tom


I've never flown one, but a Phoebus might fit your needs.

Jeff
 




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